If it is a good hand why is it so hard to play? (TT)

commadore · #1 12-10-2004, 08:55 PM

MP3 is new to the table (5 hands). He is loose but has not raise PF yet.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, Hero raises, MP3 3-bets, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, MP3 bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, MP3 3-bets, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.75 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls.

River: (10.75 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 checks.

Final Pot: 10.75 BB

The 3-bet flop made me think it was a PP, but I stuck around anyway. I'm open to criticism on any street.

CinnamonWind · #2 12-10-2004, 08:57 PM

You'll probably be shown QQ or JJ here.

private joker · #3 12-10-2004, 09:28 PM

I agree he's probably got QQ or JJ. He checked through because he got scared of the K when you called it, even though it's silly of QQ to check this river.

If you want to get fancy, you could check-raise the turn and fold to a 3-bet. If he just calls your c/r, lead the river and see if he folds JJ. That would be cool; I've seen it happen before (by terrible players, obviously).

But TT isn't all that hard to play. I like it. Raise PF, jam a flop with undercards, check-raise a flopped set (from EP) if you get 3-bet PF, and check-fold an ugly flop with two broadway cards (one of which is an A). Value bet the river. This is probably just a bad case of running into a bigger PP, but it doesn't happen very often. I think you'll find in your PT stats that TT is a profitable hand. It's one of my winningest.

eagletmr · #4 12-10-2004, 10:12 PM

through 15,000 2 + 4 hands, TT is my roommates biggest loser. And I also lose some with it at my limits. I guess we don't play it correctly. He only has 15,000 hands, but still with it being his biggest loser and it should be one of his biggest winners, something is wrong. I've heard of
playing it too passively and weak tight as causing it to become a loser, but he doesn't seem to do this, and he doesn't overplay it either. 15,000 (total hands, 80 TT) too small a sample?

EDIT: My roommates TT stats, short sample I know,

times:66
BB/H: (0.62)
VPIP:97
W$WSF: 26
PFR:62
RFI: 17
WtSD: 47
W$SD: 37

I assume not aggressive enough preflop and seeing too many rivers?

commadore · #5 12-10-2004, 10:40 PM

After 17K hands TT is my 6th biggest winner. Maybe I do like it. Foldling to the 3-bet on the flop is not an option, correct?

private joker · #6 12-10-2004, 10:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I assume not aggressive enough preflop and seeing too many rivers?

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It's really hard to say just looking at stats, and I'm the last guy to ask about stats (trust me), but it sure does appear to the layman that he sees way too many rivers. Just because TT is a very good PF hand doesn't mean it's worth sticking with all the way. My guess is this guy doesn't lay down KK either when he runs into serious action with an A on the board.

kelvin474 · #7 12-11-2004, 02:00 AM

Maybe he just missed his sets and some of them got shown flushes or straights. I think the standard error can chew this one up after that many hands but no analysis to back it up.

Richard Berg · #8 12-11-2004, 03:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]

If you want to get fancy, you could check-raise the turn and fold to a 3-bet. If he just calls your c/r, lead the river and see if he folds JJ. That would be cool; I've seen it happen before (by terrible players, obviously).

[/ QUOTE ]
Anyone else think this is chip-spewing? That's 2 extra BB -- 100 hands' profit -- you're tossing in the pot when your opponent almost certainly has the best of it, so you have to be darn sure you'll bluff him out often enough.

Let's say he has AA-99/AK/AQs. AA/KK/AK/99 will never fold, so you lose 1-3BB depending on whether he pops you again immediately or traps you on the next street. AQs will probably take a free card and/or fold the river no matter what, so +0BB. QQ-TT might fold; when he does, +4.5-10BB depending on whether you were splitting and how far into the hand he pays you off, -2BB when he doesn't. Punching all that into my dusty old TI-89, I get that he has to fold QQ-TT to your line 44% of the time. I don't like it.

Side note, is folding JJ against that much aggression from an unknown so terrible? Once check-raised, villian's getting just 5:1 to see a showdown.

private joker · #9 12-11-2004, 07:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Side note, is folding JJ against that much aggression from an unknown so terrible?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's terrible if you call the turn and fold the river. If you think JJ is no good on the river, how can it be good on the turn? If you're JJ, you either call the turn and call the river, or fold to the turn c/r (in the chip-spewing line).

Anyway, I'm not all that in favor of the turn check-raise. I just suggested it as an alternate line that I've seen work before. But an alternate is all it is.

Tk79 · #10 12-11-2004, 07:52 AM

My net winning go as such AA, QQ, KK, JJ, TT. My BB/hand go like this AA, QQ, KK, JJ, AQs, TT. This is over a 46k database. TT is a very profitable hand if played properly. The way I play it is if many ppl have already entered the pot I limp and hope for unders or a set. If there are few ppl in the pot i raise hoping to isolate and win unimproved. Post flop is a bit more complicated but you cant get married to TT. Thats a good way to make it very unprofitable.