A light goes on . . . .

[schroedy]

Party Poker 10/20, the whole table limps to me on the button and then I drag $430 or so when my T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] hit top pair on the flop, top 2 on the turn and survived the river against an overpair in the hands of an aggro and, one can only imagine, a draw and a lesser two pair.

And it starts to dawn on me that my biggest pots seem to come from my worst starts . . . .

Then I thought about this afternoon and the idiots that called my preflop raise with Axs -- twice -- and managed to make their flushes and scoop a pile of chips.

So . . . .

Do my biggest wins come from my poorest starts? Top of the head reflection suggests yes. 54s change up raise in early position flops top straight against AA; 22 raised UTG shorthanded flops a set against top 2; etc. Meanwhile some of my most painful losses are ridiculous hands coming after my big ones . . . .

Or is this selective memory?

[etizzle]

selective memory. Pockertracker is the cure.

[BubbleBoy]

Ditto. If you don't make more with bullets than with 10,8s you either haven't played enough hands or have gotten REALLLLLLLLLY luckey with 10,8s.

[fnord_too]

Definitely selective memory, just look in PT to see what your actual return on AA vice T8s is.

[Octopus]

Your biggest pots come from big hands. Hands like AK do not tend to make big hands; they tend to make top pair. Hands like T8s (and 88) do (occassionally) make big hands. So if your question is "Which of these starting hands is likely to have won the biggest pot?", then I would say probably T8s. If your question is "Which hand is more profitable?", then the answer is clearly AK.

If, as you imply, you intend to use this realization as an excuse to play more suited connectors out of position or against raises, then prepare to lose money.

[Mike]

I think our biggest wins come from very good cards for most of the table during the same round; then the hand we hold at the river is just a little better than the rest of the players?

[stoxtrader]

[ QUOTE ]
Your biggest pots come from big hands. Hands like AK do not tend to make big hands; they tend to make top pair. Hands like T8s (and 88) do (occassionally) make big hands. So if your question is "Which of these starting hands is likely to have won the biggest pot?", then I would say probably T8s. If your question is "Which hand is more profitable?", then the answer is clearly AK.

If, as you imply, you intend to use this realization as an excuse to play more suited connectors out of position or against raises, then prepare to lose money.

[/ QUOTE ]

well said.

[schroedy]

I wasn't saying that these hands are more profitable than AA, AK and the like . . . . I was wondering if these kinds of "raggedty" hands show up disproprortionately more often as the winner of largish pots. And I was not wondering about it from a "strategy adjustment" perspective, but from an "attitude adjustment" perspective. I was wondering about it as much because I see my opponents rake in the huge pots with these rags, sending my beautiful big pairs up in flames again . . . while the more frequent pots that I win with my big pairs seem to be of a more average size. I was wondering about this in order to further develop a "tilt barrier."

btw: here is the kind of table attitude I am trying to develop:

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream -- and not make dreams your master;
If you can think -- and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools;

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings -- nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run --
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And -- which is more -- you'll be a Man, my son!

(with due credit to Mr. Kipling)

[schroedy]

Except I "implied" nothing of the kind.

[Grisgra]

I agree (and didn't misunderstand your post like most others seemed to).

You'll make a lot more flopping a set with 22 when you're up against AA than when you have AA and you're up against an unimproved 22.