20-40 Commerce KQs

[Klepton]

First, weekdays at Commerce are a lot different. The ratio of TAGs to LPs on weekends to weekdays at a table is 3:6 to 6:3.

Reads for this hand: SB was loose, and would bet dumb draws but would hate calling with them. MP was a loose passive smiling white dude.

I'm in the CO with K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

MP calls, I raise, SB calls, BB folds, 3 to the flop:

K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB bets out, MP raises, I 3 bet, Sb thinks for 4 seconds then calls, MP caps, we both call.

Turn: super blank

SB checks, MP bets, I raise, SB calls time, thinks for 10 seconds, calls 2 bets, MP grabs a handful of chips, then just calls.

River: another super blank [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

SB checks, MP checks, I ???

[anatta]

Passive white guy in MP raises the flop bet, caps your three-bet, and bets into you. He looked like he wanted to three-bet you on the turn, but just called. You should check the river, top pair good kicker likely no good.

On the turn, I think you have to put MP on a minimum of KJ (a set or QT very possible). I base this on the fact that passive players might, might, semi bluff raise the nut flush draw or a pair and a str8 draw...one time. But he capped a flop that obviously hit you, the preflop raiser. He bet into you again on the turn. So I think YOU are the one that is drawing.

Since you got a free showdown, your raise on the turn was okay and one I would make against most all opponents, just not here. You might even be able to fold out SB and increase your winning (or non-chopping chances). You could have 12 or more clean outs, but you can't be sure, and a 12 outter is 3:1 (you have two opponents, no value there). More likely than SB folding is MP three-betting. Guys do get dealt QT and even passive ones know what to do with it.

My main point is that you are behind and drawing to a passive opponent on the turn the vast majority of time.

[onegymrat]

Hi Klepton,

I think a river check is the best play. For a loose-passive dude, MP sure acted like he had a super hand. It's conceivable that he is behind, but the only logical holdings would be KT, QJ or AQs, and I don't see a loose-passive being so aggressive with those. It may be KJ, K9 or J9. Your turn raise was sweet, but it had its intended value. Either you're pumping up the pot for when your flush hits, or a free showdown...and I didn't see the spade on the river.

[fearme]

hi

[fearme]

im now leaning toward checking, 2 pair seems most logical, there is one benefit to value betting in that u wont get reraised because they are passive unless u are beat

[TStoneMBD]

with a passive player waking up and representing a hand, this is a river check. id also prefer just calling down on the turn as you are likely behind and should try to induce the 3rd party into calling with weaker hands. against a LP he may even have a hand like trip nines fearing you have QT KK or JJ simply because you raised the turn and therefore isnt going to throw anymore bets in. LPs are scary when they voluntarily put money in the pot.

[Klepton]

i checked, cuz i knew i wasn't good. MP has J9, I mucked, SB didn't show either. After the hand, people were trying to put me on a hand, which they couldn't. I guess this is what i was trying to do.

Later on people were cold calling my turn raises alot faster.

[andyfox]

"After the hand, people were trying to put me on a hand, which they couldn't."

So many people can't not show a missed royal or straight flush draw, especially when they flopped it. Congratulations on resisting the temptation, which indeed should have resulted in "people . . . cold calling my turn raises alot faster."

[Rick Nebiolo]

On the river there is no reason to fold so why not check? [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

~ Rick

[wateronrock]

If he's passive, checking/calling the turn folding the river unimproved sounds like the best line.

Players that I consider passive, don't cap on the flop with less than two pair.