EVALUATING HAND STRENGTH FROM THE BLINDS

[LaGarde]

I had no experience playing with anyone at the table. Table loose/passive with 5-6 to the flop routinely and betting was very striaghtforward post flop.

I thought this hand is a great example of difficulties reading hands from the blinds.

In SB w/ K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG & UTG+2 limp
MP2 raises
Button cold calls
all limpers call
6 in for 6BB

flop: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
hero checks
checked to UTG+2 bets, PF raiser calls, button calls, hero calls, BB calls, UTG folds.

Turn: T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG+2 bets, MP2 raises, button folds.
Action now 2 bets to me with BB and first better behind. Pot now 11 BB.
Hero folds.

Was interested to see what others would do with very little read and an interesting raise from PF raiser.

I had a few thoughts but would like to hear yours first.

Thanks

[Klepton]

With that many callers on the flop I would check-raise to gain more information. If everyone just called I would then lead out on the turn. The way this played out it looks like MP2 could have AK trying to get rid of the flush draws, KK slowplaying, or TT miracle turn.

If you bet this turn and anyone raised you I think you could have safely folded without having the runner diamonds anymore, but the way you played it made it correct to fold no matter what.

[onegymrat]

Hi LaGarde,

I don't think calling pf with KQo is a profitable play at that moment. Most genuine loose-passives who raise in MP will have a better hand than yours, plus you have 4 others with whom to contend out of position.

However, the flop hit you hard. To play on effectively would be to check-raise the flop, hoping that MP2 bets. This will help define the flush draws and other mega-hands. If an EP bets and other have called, then calling may be right and then lead on the turn, should it be favorable. The pf raiser's turn raise could consist of many hands: AK, AQd, AJd, TT, QQ, 77 or even KQ. By not check-raising, you allowed MP2 to masterfully raise you out on the turn.

[LaGarde]

The river comes 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
check/call

UTG+2 shows KJo
MP2 shows AQo

UTG+2 wins the pot and I'm left to scratch my head.

The MP2's raise on the turn on only a gutshot with 1 overcard served it's purpose I guess, it thinned the field and got the best hand out, but would anyone have been able to stay in the pot for 2BB cold?

I thought the MP2 had either AK or a set (77?) so the fold seemed like a nobrainer.

Anyone have any thoughts?

[LaGarde]

Gymrat I was going to try a c/r on the turn if the MP2 called, at that point I would have been certain I was ahead but the thought of check/3bet wasn't very appealing.

I guess as soon as I checked the turn out I sort of forfeited the hand. Next time I'll try to push harder for information.

Thanks for your input

[BottlesOf]

Fold preflop, bet the flop.

[random]

That really doesn't help at all. C'mon. Even if calling with KQ preflop is a losing play, it is definitely not clear cut and is worth discussion. It is definitely playable if it played right after the flop. And why should he bet the flop? Check-raising gains a whole lot more information than betting. There are a whole lot of hands that would raise the flop, while there are few that would three-bet after a check-raise.

[LaGarde]

The turn raise from the PF raiser I believed was a dead give away of at least AK. I think anyone sitting at a table with no real reads on anyone yet would do the same.

In my read I tended to think more in the area of set or AA because I don't think it's correct to call with AK on the flop and give worse hands a chance to outdraw you.

I don't think calling raise in big field with KQo is that terrible of a play, I do think the line after the flop is awful.

Thanks for all your input

[schroedy]

Getting involved in the first place (preflop) left you not knowing where you were later. Or "knowing" where you were but being wrong about it.

Whenever possible, wait until you have clearly superior cards, clearly weaker opponents, position and, to the extent relevant, chip advantage. The game goes on for a long time . . . .

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
That really doesn't help at all. C'mon. Even if calling with KQ preflop is a losing play, it is definitely not clear cut and is worth discussion. It is definitely playable if it played right after the flop. And why should he bet the flop? Check-raising gains a whole lot more information than betting. There are a whole lot of hands that would raise the flop, while there are few that would three-bet after a check-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a lot of chip spewing and lack of protecting your hand.