check-raise the back-door flush when you catch the turn?

[BadBatsuMaru]

MP1 seems fairly tight, very aggressive (19% VP$IP, 12% PFR after 30 hands). Everybody else in this hand is pretty fishy.

I'm just wondering if I screwed this up or not. I'm trying to play more aggressively, but I'm not sure about this one.

I've got a back-door flush, back-door straight and an overcard with no kicker. This is probably something I can only count as about 3.25 outs, which is 13 to 1. I'm getting at least 10 to 1, so with implied odds I think I can see the turn for one small bet. Should I have folded?

When I hit the diamond on the turn, should I still just check/call? I mean, nobody's going to suspect me of much, so should I just try to check-raise the river if I hit? The problem I see with that is that a lot of people might check around the river if the 3rd diamond hits, so I'd probably end up betting out. The turn check-raise is a better way to build up the pot, but do I have the odds to be doing that? I have the flush draw (not the nut flush) and a weak overcard, so that's maybe 10 outs (3.6 to 1) and I'm getting 8 to 1, so it seems like a correct check-raise.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button folds, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG folds.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, CO calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

River: (13.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 folds, CO folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB



Here's another hand. I'm not sure if I screwed this one up, either. I have the 4-flush, gutshot and an overcard (15 outs). Do I just bet out every time? It seems very rare that an 8-handed flop gets checked all the way around, so I thought I could slowplay it (I don't remember anything being checked all the way around this table in awhile). Is this just stupid? On the turn, I miss my flush, I no longer have an overcard, and I have to call 2 big bets to continue, but I still have 12 probable outs (2.83 to 1) and I'm getting at least 4 to 1 if everybody folds (and not considering implied odds). So it's correct to call here and not raise, right?



Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (8 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(8 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, Button checks.

Turn: (4 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(8 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, <font color="CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, CO folds, Button folds, Hero calls, BB calls, MP1 calls.

River: (12 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB folds, MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero folds, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 16 BB



Like I say, I'm trying to play more aggressively, but if I'm doing it wrong, I suppose it'd be better just to play passively than throw money away.

[Shillx]

Hand one is no bueno. Fold on the flop. Of the 3 kings, the K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] isn't such a good overcard out. Even if you spike a King, you still might not have the best hand and can get outdrawn on the river if you do. You backdoor straight draw sucks here. All you really have is a bd flush draw, and it is not worth chasing in this pot.

The turn checkraise is -EV too. With 4 players in and a 1/5 shot of making the flush, you are giving up a little bit here.

Hand #2 just bet the flop. Calling 2 cold on the turn is okay if it will not get raised behind you (unless you can get lots of bets on the river which is almost surely the case).

Shill

[BadBatsuMaru]

So a back-door straight and a K overcard don't even count as 1.5 - 1.75 outs?

Can I even count a K with no kicker as a single out? I'm sure you're right, but I'm just trying to justify folding.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
So a back-door straight and a K overcard don't even count as 1.5 - 1.75 outs?

Can I even count a K with no kicker as a single out? I'm sure you're right, but I'm just trying to justify folding.

[/ QUOTE ]
You don't need to work on justifying folding. You need to work on justifying calling.

I would bet the flop in hand #2. It's not likely to have hit anyone particularly strongly, so checkraising is probably not a good plan.

Rob

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
So a back-door straight and a K overcard don't even count as 1.5 - 1.75 outs?

[/ QUOTE ]

are you making this call if you give yourself 2-3 outs? easy flop fold. not closing the action is bad too unless the remaining players are passive.

[PokerIsLife]

Furthermore in Hand #2, you don't want to check raise bettor from late position, since you're forcing callers behind you to call 2 cold, which might result in more folds, and that's definitely not what you want.

[droolie]

When working on aggression you need to ask yourself what you're trying to accomplish. There are three reasons to raise (1) to build a pot, (2) to protect your hand and knock out other players and (3) to get a free card. You need to then pick the best strategy for accomplishing what you want to do.

If you want to build up a pot don't make the field face 2 cold by check-raising just bet out and hope for a raise. (Unless you think a bet is coming from your immediate left, then you can C/R for value. This will usually be when the preflop raiser was to your immediate left) If you want to knock out players and aren't sure where a raise might come from, check-raise. (Many players will call one bet on the flop no matter what they have. These people will fold for two cold bets though. Once players have commited a bet in a round they are far less likely to fold on that same round when the pot is reraised and they have to put in two Sb's. They are in essence "trapped" into betting that round.) If you're drawing to a probable winner and want to see the river for free raise the flop from late position regardless of value.


hand 1: Fold the flop. You're chasing top pair or an unlikely backdoor flush here. Don't chase top pair with only one overcard in a small pot. There are just too many ways to lose this hand. Save your BB's for a better spot. Considering you stayed why then raise the turn? The turn raise was not a value bet as you're over 4-1 to make your flush. The others had already commited on that round so they're not folding either so you're not improving your winning % by knocking out other players. Call.

Hand 2: Bet that flop. If you're lucky it'll get raised and you can reraise. This is a value bet so no need to knock out other players with a C/R. The worse case scenario here happened, it got checked through. The worse case scenario if you bet out is what? 6 out of 7 fold when the guy next to you raises and the field faces two cold? Relatively unlikely. Your C/R play here is way more likely to produce that scenario as LP will often bet if checked all around. Bet out and hope for a raise from any position.

[k000k]

Catching your flush on the river is 4:1, and you're getting paid 3:1 on the extra $$ you're putting in if you hit. This is -EV period.. You have odds to CALL a bet. You dont have odds to MAKE a bet, let alone 2, even if EVERYONE calls, which is probable but you can't know... I could see a C/R if you had TPTK or something to go along with that draw, but without a river diamond, you have absolutely nothing. You say MP1 is a TAG, get out of his way. Sorry, but that's a terrible C/R.

Since 1/2 the field folded, calling the river raise is pretty thin in hand 2. If it gets 3bet you're -EV. I'd call it if I was near certain 2 was as high as it would go.