Playing short stacked on the bubble

[Hashiell_Dammett]

I need some help/advice/tips for playing short stacked when you're deep into a tourney.

Are there any guidelines for the hand you pick to run with?
Or is it all just a matter of having to get lucky and outdraw a better hand so you might as well pick any random hand?
At what point do you just give in and just run with any two cards no matter what they are?

Here's an example from a recent tourney where I was unfortunate enough to be in this situation:

Live 20 player NL HE $22+3
Down to 7 - pays to 5
One guy has about $9K
4 players are hovering around $2500
One guy has $500
I have $725.
Blinds are 150/300
10 minutes before blinds move to 150/300 w/ $25 ante

At this point, I'll try to double up with any pair, any ace, any 2 cards 9 or higher any suited queen or higher, any suited connecters 89 and up and even some one gappers if there is no raise in front of me.
Are these unreasonable requirements for my situation?

In the BB I get Qc 6s
Amazingly, everyone folds to the SB who is notorious for ultra aggressive overbetting.
But then he just limped in and I got suspicious.
I check
The flop comes: 4d 5d Ts
He puts me all-in
He's either got an overpair or a garbage hand that just caught some piece of a garbage flop.
I fold.
Is that a weak fold?
Should I have gone in preflop with my garbage at that point?

[JARID]

Hey there Malcon Faltese,

In the tourney you described, if you could try to slip into the money, maybe that is a preferred approach. If not, I would tend to avoid a suited Q, but otherwise I suppose what you suggest is reasonable.
Problem is, you have no folding equity at only 2x the big blind. The idea is not to let it get to that point. Perhaps make some moves before that.

As for the hand, calling all-in with Q high is generally discouraged. Yes fold. Try your luck with the sb.

Again, at 2x the big blind its really tough to give sound advice except try to get lucky. Maybe someone else could offer more insight, but I am more curious about how it got to that point.

Welcome to the forums-
Jarid

[Hashiell_Dammett]

Thanks for the warm welcome there, Jarid

This was my first post and I don't think I articulated my question very well. I didn't mean to imply that Qx is a hand that anyone should try to push with.

I was just wondering if that might have been a situation where I'm out of time and might as well push with Q high and hope to get lucky?
Or is there never a time to push with something like Q high?

It almost seems like if I don't push there my short stack will become so short that even doubling up 3 hands later doesn't really help my chances of sneaking into the money. Especially with the blinds about to go up to include a $25 ante.

If all he has is a low pair or a flush draw and I get lucky I'll have 1450 and I'll be able to get clear of the blinds with 1300. I figure that's about the minimum I would need to sneak into the money. If I can double up the 1300, I'm right back in it with good shot at finishing better than 5th.

Otherwise, I'm folding the BB and probably the SB too which leaves me with a pathetic 275 - not even enough to call at this level. Even if I'm fortunate enough double up in the SB, I still only have 850. And with the antes coming that really only buys me maybe an extra 3 or 4 hands.

When you are that close to the money but also that short stacked, do you just hold out til the very end when the BB puts you all-in? Or do you push with a lesser hand before it gets to that point?

As for how I got into this situation in the first place, it was a combination of things. It started with a very strange and wild hand where I made an ill-timed raise. Follow that up with a long spell of unplayable cards and you end up wondering if you should go all-in with Q6.

Here's the details of the hand if you care. I'm pretty sure I didn't do anything wrong here. It was just a crazy hand.

About 30 minutes earlier, we've got 9 players still in.
Button is ahead with about 4000
SB is the short stack with about 1000
BB and everybody else are either just above/below 2000
I'm one off the button with 1800 and change

Blinds are at 100/200

I catch Kd Qd

Everyone folds around to the aggressive player on my right who opens with the min raise to 400. I reraise to 800 hoping to knock out the button and blinds behind me and catch this guy heads up and out of position.
Here's where it gets crazy.

Instead of folding, the button raises to 2000 - about half his stack but enough to put any one of us all-in

The SB calls all-in without any hesitation

The BB thinks about it for a long minute before calling all-in as well - using these exact words "I can't do it. I have to call."

The original bettor folds and so do I.

Button has AA
SB has 77
BB has QQ
The aces held.
I moved up 2 places.
The big stack became a monster stack.
And that KQs was the last playable hand I saw.

After that, I was in an awkward situation - hurt but not crippled. I camp out and wait for a big hand to push with. The guy on my left is now sitting on top of a mountain of chips which hurts any steal opportunities I might get. I expect that he would probably call any all-in bet from me with any marginal and even sub-marginal hand so I don't think that a bluff steal is a very good idea.
Should I have tried anyway?

A few times around the table, and I never caught anything better than Qx. Each time the blinds went through me, I losened my hand requirements a little more but still didn't catch anything. Fast forward to the hand in my original post and that's how I got there.

And this actually illustrates the meat of my question:
When you are short stacked like that but still close to the money and you're waiting for a big hand...
What do you do when it does not come?

At what point (if any) do you stop waiting and just go in with any 2 cards?

[zaxx19]

If the bubble is that close check call and stall...that rhymed lol

[davidross]

Its the final table, I don't see how stalling helps.

[davidross]

The prime rule is don't get short stacked. The rule of thumb most of us use is that once you get below 10 big bets, your playing all-in or fold.

Allin moves with 10 BB's are very strong, and are unlikely to get called except by huge hands. If it's folded to me in LP, and I have 9 BB's left, I will quite often move in with any 2 cards. I'm actually more likely to do it with a hand like 87 than with A5, because the only hands that call you are big aces and pairs. Ace rag is terrible against those hands, while with 87 I usually have a better chance against the big aces.

In the hand you described I would have check folded as you did.

[zaxx19]

Your right ooops.. maybe it will piss everyone off and they will play irrationally??

[JARID]

Hashiell, <-----I hope my appreciation of your handle in the initial post wasn't lost on you [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img].

Cards run cold sometimes. Seems like the blinds hike up pretty fast in your game though? DavidRoss's advice below on short stack play is good.

[ QUOTE ]
When you are that close to the money but also that short stacked, do you just hold out til the very end when the BB puts you all-in? Or do you push with a lesser hand before it gets to that point?


[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, I would try to hold out, but if a decent hand came along I would definately push. Actually if the big stack guy is going to call you with sub-marginal hands that actually works to your advantage IMO. It gives you a chance to get back in the game. The other stacks are kinda short to and will likely clear out unless they have a monster.

For example, if you have lets say, K8s and you know he'll call you with T9s, well I think thats a good thing.

-Jarid

[Hashiell_Dammett]

JARID
The Faltese Malcon ref was definitely appreciated.
The Min Than or Ontinental Cop would have been inspired though.

Thanks to you and davidross for the advice.

I probably should have made a few moves earlier while I still had enough chips to threaten people with.
I don't want to finish two out of the money but niether does anybody else - I should have exploited that when I had the chance.
I guess I just got gun shy so close to the money.

Thanks Again
Hash