What's your flop action and why? 2-flops.

[Joe Tall]

Here's a hand one of my students recently played. I have posted 2 versions, tell me what your action is and why. This is your typical SS-loose passive game with a mix of players.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed)

Hand#1

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
Hero...


__________________________________________________ ____
Hand#2

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
Hero...

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Joe826]

check and check. why would you consider betting? you're not really concerned with eliminating players since your T in the first hand is the only card that could possibly give you the winning hand without hitting your flush/straight. getting raised and having players fold when they would have otherwise callled in positions like these sucks.

[Shillx]

Bet both. People will probably like these flops (somone might raise here, you do say it is passive). You might be able to get 3-bets 4 ways in a pot like this. At the very least, a lot of people will just call. If you make your flush on the turn, it gives you a lot of flexability (to bet or check/raise).

Brad

[gaming_mouse]

I think both of these are easy value bets, aren't they?

gm

[Trix]

I think you can valuebet both cuz you expect 2+ callers [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[brian0729]

Hi Joe,

I check raise the first hand and bet out on the 2nd hand.

Hand 1: I check because I may have a chance to check raise and give my T a chance to win should one come on a later street.

Hand 2: I have no over cards I am going to win with a flush only so I bet for value here.

[spamuell]

Bet, you obviously want money in on these flops so the question is bet vs c/r. You don't know where a bet will come from and you don't want to make the field face two cold so just bet. Also, if you bet, you may well get to 3-bet (if you have enough opponents), which is profitable and fun.

[pokerkai]

Id go for the checkraise on the first. With the added outs from the gutshot and overcard, your a big favorite to take this pot if you clean up your ten outs and if they cold call...well, its not like you cant handle multi way action.

Second hand, id just bet out, go into check call mode if i run into any agression.

[Moyer]

I check the first hand, with the intention of raising if someone on my left bets (trapping everyone else for two bets). If someone on my right bets, I call. I think betting out is close too. If the table is passive, bet it.

I bet the second one. You don't want someone on your left to raise, but there was also no aggression before the flop so I think the risk is minimal.


Is it really a big mistake whether you check, bet, or c/r either of these flops?

[cnfuzzd]

I actually do it backwards i guess. At least, thats what she said...


Im betting the first. I know in this game its likely that someone will bet, but if the bet doesnt come until late position, i dont think the checkraise would be optimum ev. The possiblilty of losing players and not getting bets into the pot with this many outs is horrendous. Also, you are not cleaning up many outs really. The only dirty out would be any ten, which is not what you are playing this hand for anyway. The best cleaning job you do is get TJ to fold, which isnt likely, or a singleton club higher than your T. Given that the single club needs runner-runner, im not worried about cleaing up my outs. Thus, get bets in. However, if this table was *so* loose that multiple cold calls wouldnt be out of the ordinary, the checkraise is perfectly viable. I have yet to find many tables above .5/1 where that happens alot.

Hand Two

This hand is differently, if im not behind to a Q, then i can definitly do with some clearing out players since im drawing to fewer outs. To add value to the hand, i desperatly need to be able to draw to a ten, since my only other outs are clubs, and a slight runner runner straight. so i check, and hope that a bet comes from late position. Raising is hopefully going to clear out some overcards and possible a ten. Of course, cold-calling isnt a terrible thing for my hand, but this is where i would much rather have them fold. Also, there is a chance that, if i miss, i can check the turn and watch it get checked around, if the table is passive enough.

Im not entirely sure about either of these those, some im ready for some answers.

How do i become a joe tall student? if i am, and "graduate" can i change my name to "Joe Rotund"

peace

john nickle