Screwed up the turn, what's the river decision?

[jedi]

I feel checking behind is weak, but gave the villian the opportunity to bluff his chips on the river. I defintely didn't put him on JT for a made straight, and I really wasn't afraid of a flush. What should I have done on the turn, and given the turn play I did make, what is my river action?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) converter

saw flop|<font color="C00000">saw showdown</font>

SB ($13.30)
BB ($33.85)
UTG ($144.85)
<font color="C00000">UTG+1 ($141.15)</font>
<font color="C00000">Jedi ($113.95)</font>
MP2 ($96.05)
MP3 ($281.90)
CO ($83.20)
Button ($97)

Preflop: Jedi is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls $1, <font color="CC3333">Jedi raises to $4</font>, MP2 calls $4, MP3 calls $4, CO calls $4, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls $3, UTG+1 calls $3.

Flop: ($24.50) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="CC3333">Jedi bets $20</font>, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, BB folds, UTG+1 calls $20.

Turn: ($64.50) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, Jedi checks.

River: ($64.50) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets $117.15 (All-In)</font>, Jedi...?


Results in white below: <font color="white">
I called.

UTG+1 has 4c 3c (straight, five high).
Jedi has Ac As (three of a kind, aces).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins $271.60. </font>

[kongo_totte]

I would raise more than 4 BB PF. Probably $6.

Flop bet is OK. I would make it a full pot-sized, but $20 should be enough.

The turn is where I get confused. Why don't you put him on a flush? I would say a flush is his most likely holding. Other possible holdings are A K, but I would say a flush is more likely. However, if you don't put him on a flush, you must think you have the best hand, so why not value bet? Even if I had him on a flush, I would bet about 1/3 of the pot. If he hasn't caught the flush, he will probably fold, which is fine IMO. The pot is big enough. If he re-raises you, it's just a math problem on whether you call or not. Checking behind is also allright IMO, but only if you think you´re beat. Get a free-card and hope to pair the board. If you check and don’t improve I would fold to a decent sized bet on the river. The thing is, if you check behind, you’ll give him a better chance to bluff the river, and you will have trouble calling it unimproved. The 5 high straight is a possibility (very strangely played though). If you bet the turn $20 or so, I really don’t see him pushing the river with a straight. When you checked the turn, you must fold the river. If he isn’t a total maniac, he must have you for a hand that he beats.

[Tilt]

PFR is fine.

Make it $25 on the turn.

Bet the turn. If he calls you know where you stand when he crashes the pot on the river.

And fold that river. Both the straight and flush draws could be made, so trips are pretty weak against an all-in there. If you had bet the turn you would have a good idea if he was bluffing the river here and it might make it an easier laydown. Call me weak but when both draws are on the board I think its best to not try busting people who make 2X pot bets.

[BigToga]

Wow - I don't know how you put a guy on a 43s when he plays this way... He called, of course, because it was only $3 more into a $21 pot, I suppose, but wow - he called to play this hand even before you raised lol.

I think PFR was perfect

When he called your $20 bet, I'm thinking he has something big (two pair, set). I guess I should also include J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] too here in my realm of possibilities. There's no way I'm figuring he's hit the straight. This is tough... my gut instinct is check behind on the turn since he could've been playing the flush draw hands. He felt safe on the river that you would fold with the flush draw out there, I think, and probably put you on AK... Putting out a blocking bet of $20-$25 is probably good here too. If he calls though, I'm done with the hand.

You don't mention any reads/stats of this player so you're just going blind on the river all-in... It really isn't hard to fold top set here for me especially the way the hand was played. I just have to think that he just might call my up-front bets with QJs/JTs though if he's remotely fishy. He came in front first position and didn't re-raise so he's fishing already. He probably thinks you would'nt have raised from your position with KQ of diamonds when the flop hit so he could feel it safe to play with you and bust you if he hits. When the K of diamonds hits the turn, that, he figures, is the ultimate scare card for you and he played it. Also, it might've given you top 2 pr. Accordingly, in my mind, when he goes all-in on the river, he has the flush. I'm not willing to risk my whole stack against an unknown oppoenent in this situation. You only have invested $24 thus far - no reason to put in another $100 here. I'd just compliment him on how well he played the hand and fold hoping he'll stay in the game and play the same way later and let me bust him!

QUESTION: Am I wrong in not considering 43s in the realm of possible hands that he called the flop with? It's just that, in my mind, there's no one who would call from UTG+1 with this and especially not $3 more even into a $21 pot...

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

Why were you not afraid of the flush? Given the flush cards out there and your opponents play, I would have been very afraid of that. I may or may not have bet the turn to test his hand, but I certainly wasn't calling an all-in on the river. Fear of the flush here would have protected you from the straight as well.

[jedi]

After reading the comments, yes I was afraid of the flush as well, but for some reason when posting the hand it slipped my mind.

There are 2 lines I can think of in this case.

1) If I check behind on the turn (which is what I did), I should be prepared to fold to a large river bet if I don't fill up, believing that he has the flush on a wiffed check-raise attempt. If I didn't think he had the flush, I should have bet the turn.

2) The better line is betting the turn and probably folding to a huge turn check-raise, or calling a smaller check raise and folding the river if I don't fill up.

Thoughts?

The "read" wasn't really there. He wasn't a maniac. Didn't seem to be particularly out of line, but was also new to the table.

I've been getting hammered in NL cash games over the last week, and I think it's plays like this that are doing me in. I need to be more patient and not get tied to a hand just because I have a set of Aces. In limit, I'd be capping every street, flush and straight be damned, but here it's a different story.