Rivering a straight following a single suit flop...

chesspain · #1 11-28-2004, 10:45 AM

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 handed)

This was a full-table game that was temporarily short-handed. No read on the CO, who has only been here for a few orbits. Button was fairly loose-passive.

Preflop: chesspain is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, 1 fold, chesspain checks.

Flop: (3.33 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
chesspain checks, CO bets, Button raises, chesspain calls, CO calls.

Turn: (4.66 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
chesspain checks, CO bets, Button calls, chesspain calls.

River: (7.66 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
chesspain checks, CO bets, Button calls, chesspain raises, CO 3-bets, Button folds, chesspain calls.

[i]Do I go ahead for the river cap, especially since I can't be reraised? Or do I respect the possibility that the CO is pulling a stop-and-go with a baby flush?

Koller · #2 11-28-2004, 11:05 AM

Did you consider betting the flop? I would bet the flop.

spamuell · #3 11-28-2004, 11:09 AM

Hey, nice to see a Chesspain post, haven't seen you around all that much recently.

I would have bet the flop because I like to do that in situations like this, because I'd also bet pairs there, you might the pot right there and you have a lot of outs if called. I would follow through on the turn if called by one or both opponents.

I think that what you did was fine though, doesn't look like you did anything wrong. I wouldn't cap the river with a straight after being 3-bet on a 3-flush board by an unknown bettor who has bet every street.

EDIT: Looking again, CO's action really isn't that consistent with a flush. He looks like he has a pair and button also has a pair and a diamond, perhaps he has the J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] x which rivered him enough to call with. Or maybe he just has top pair which was worth raising the flop with and calling down. But button's not a problem after the 3-bet anyway, do you win more than 50% of the time that you cap and CO calls? Hmmm, I don't know, one the one hand he has played the hand like he wants to protect from free cards, on the other, 3-betting the river is serious when there's a 3-flush on board. It's difficult against an unknown, I probably don't cap though because whenever I do in situations that their play doesn't seem to lead to them having a flush except their river action, it turns out that their play just didn't make sense and I lose.

wuarhg · #4 11-28-2004, 11:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (3.33 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
chesspain checks, CO bets, Button raises, chesspain calls, CO calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

By the looks of this I can't say I exactly put him on a flush, I would like to 3-bet the flop if I was CO with a babyflush, maybe he has something like AT with a T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], If he's capable of limping in with that.

Buttons raise on the flop is really odd, what is he raising here? Does he have the Ace? I'm having trouble making any sense of this, I myself would have called the river 3-bet. Anyone else have pointers? [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

chesspain · #5 11-28-2004, 11:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (3.33 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
chesspain checks, CO bets, Button raises, chesspain calls, CO calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

By the looks of this I can't say I exactly put him on a flush, I would like to 3-bet the flop if I was CO with a babyflush, maybe he has something like AT with a T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], If he's capable of limping in with that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given CO's preflop limp, the flop smooth call, and the unceasing aggression on the turn and river, I wondered if he could have a baby flush. If so, he might have wanted to avoid putting too many bets in on the flop when he realized that his hand could have gone south on the turn.

wuarhg · #6 11-28-2004, 11:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (3.33 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
chesspain checks, CO bets, Button raises, chesspain calls, CO calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

By the looks of this I can't say I exactly put him on a flush, I would like to 3-bet the flop if I was CO with a babyflush, maybe he has something like AT with a T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], If he's capable of limping in with that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given CO's preflop limp, the flop smooth call, and the unceasing aggression on the turn and river, I wondered if he could have a baby flush. If so, he might have wanted to avoid putting too many bets in on the flop when he realized that his hand could have gone south on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very true, I totally forgot that line. Everyday you forget something and learn something new, you have to get something out to get something in, right? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Edit: in hindsight I really don't see him having anything else than the flush, or rather that he probably has it. There are not many hands he would go crazy with on the river, I mean, he probably wont limp with AA KK AK(?) or even if he limped with 55 and flopped a set. I now officially put him on the flush. That's probably what he has if he is a good player. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

BigBaitsim (milo) · #7 11-28-2004, 11:32 AM

With the gutshot plus [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] outs to the nuts, I usually bet this flop and call a raise. If he just calls, I lead out the turn as well.

If played as you did, I would probably just call the river. That having been said, your hand is good more than 1/2 the time here, making this a good place to cap (I don't always play them right, it's a huge hole in my game).

mtdoak · #8 11-28-2004, 12:59 PM

Probably should have led out the betting here in the bb. Monotone flops are ALWAYS tough to play, even if you have the nut flush. I would bet out the flop, and lead the turn, as you will get alot of valuable information. Anyone with a flush will always raise on the turn, even a small one, while just a top pair or two pair will call as they are afraid of the flush.

The worst play here is the check-raise on the river. The CO is representing the flush. Probably a small flush. This is a clear bet and call situation. The check-raise is the absolute wrong move. The pot is only 8 BB, and the check raise will commit you for 3 BB if he has the flush.

Little Fishy · #9 11-28-2004, 01:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
your hand is good more than 1/2 the time

[/ QUOTE ]

just curious, wha hands do you put villains on to make this assertion?

-little fish

chesspain · #10 11-28-2004, 02:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Probably should have led out the betting here in the bb. Monotone flops are ALWAYS tough to play, even if you have the nut flush. I would bet out the flop, and lead the turn, as you will get alot of valuable information. Anyone with a flush will always raise on the turn, even a small one, while just a top pair or two pair will call as they are afraid of the flush.

The worst play here is the check-raise on the river. The CO is representing the flush. Probably a small flush. This is a clear bet and call situation. The check-raise is the absolute wrong move. The pot is only 8 BB, and the check raise will commit you for 3 BB if he has the flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

You certainly seem pretty sure of yourself, even if some of your advice is suspect. Indeed:

1) Whereas I understand the logic of betting out on the flop, I didn't want to be in a situation where the action might go raise-fold, meaning that I've just put in two bets with a hand that will have to improve to win in a heads-up contest. However, you state that I should bet the flop and then bet the turn, because you believe a turn raise will give me a lot of information. Unfortunately, lots of hands besides for flushes could raise a raggedy turn, which I can't fold anyway, given my nut flush draw + gutshot. Betting a turn where I have an unmade hand but a bunch of outs is foolish if I don't think I can get my opponent(s) to fold, especially if I can't fold to a raise.

2) In addition, I'm curious how you're so positive that the CO has the flush on the river. He could easily have a hand like Ax (with or without a little diamond), J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K, T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K, etc. Furthermore, if I spring out of nowhere and bet the river, I will likely only get raised by a better hand. In addition, if the CO is the one raising, I may not even get the overlay of the (calling station) Button calling down with what may be a singleton A or K, if he is forced to call two cold without closing the action. However, by checkraising, I may well get two bets out of both the CO and the Button when I am best, since neither will be forced to coldcall. I believe that your refusal to checkraise the river because you are afraid that the CO has a flopped flush is very weak-tight poker. The only reason to not checkraise this river is if you are afraid if will be checked around.