too agressive? checked twice to me..

Cartridge · #1 11-28-2004, 05:59 AM

Is this a bad move vs a big stack? This is a $10 sng, and he was playing a bit on the loose side, blinds were going up in 1min if that means anything

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (5 handed)

SB (t4075)
BB (t1385)
UTG (t2305)
Hero (t1355)
Button (t880)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG folds, Hero raises to t450, Button folds, SB calls t375, BB folds.

Flop: (t1050) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (t1050) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t905 (All-In), SB calls t905.

River: (t2860) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t2860

Results in white below: 
SB has 8s 8h (full house, fours full of eights).
Hero has Qc Ac (three of a kind, fours).
Outcome: SB wins t2860.

tigerite · #2 11-28-2004, 06:02 AM

I guarantee this will be a standard response, but.. push preflop!

Myst · #3 11-28-2004, 07:22 AM

Less than ~10 BB. push preflop.

Guy F · #4 11-28-2004, 01:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I guarantee this will be a standard response, but.. push preflop!

[/ QUOTE ]

There probably won't be a tremendous amount of disagreement with this, but I think it misses the original question and is something others (like me, for example :-) struggle with in ring games as well as tourneys.

Rephrasing the question: What clues are available to help differentiate someone who checks twice because they're afraid (and is therefore someone you can attack) from someone who checks to trap you?

My own approach is to do something - anything - to get information as early as I can. If the stack size vs. blinds wasn't an issue (which it is here), I make a defensive bet on the flop and see what the other guy does. Position is my best friend here. Chances are it scares him too, but if he flat calls I shut down. He's either trapping, or is genuinely unsure whether his hand is best and wants to see another card. Like me he may have only high cards or fears a bigger boat (I could easily have a bigger pair than his). Since I have position, I can check behind on the turn to see if the river fills me up. If he bets at me anywhere after the flop, though, I'm gone.

In this specific situation I push on the flop without hesitation and hope to hell he doesn't have a pair or at least respects the possibility that I have a bigger pair. My stack is so small there's no point in folding and if he doesn't have a pair I don't want him seeing more cards.

tigerite · #5 11-28-2004, 01:23 PM

Absolutely, I agree. If somehow I got to this position with 450 of my 1300 stack in the pot - over 30% - I'd push any flop, sort of like a delayed stop and go.

Desdia72 · #6 11-28-2004, 01:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Is this a bad move vs a big stack? This is a $10 sng, and he was playing a bit on the loose side, blinds were going up in 1min if that means anything

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (5 handed)

SB (t4075)
BB (t1385)
UTG (t2305)
Hero (t1355)
Button (t880)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG folds, Hero raises to t450, Button folds, SB calls t375, BB folds.

Flop: (t1050) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (t1050) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t905 (All-In), SB calls t905.

River: (t2860) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t2860

Results in white below: 
SB has 8s 8h (full house, fours full of eights).
Hero has Qc Ac (three of a kind, fours).
Outcome: SB wins t2860. 

[/ QUOTE ]

i would've pushed preflop with this hand against a player like this, even if i only accomplished stealing the blinds. either that or all-in on the flop. if he has a pocket pair lower than a Queen and calls, you can still improve on the turn and river. definite push preflop for me. if you're a good postflop player, you don't have enough chips to manuever or bluff with when you miss after raising.

Paul2432 · #7 11-28-2004, 01:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Rephrasing the question: What clues are available to help differentiate someone who checks twice because they're afraid (and is therefore someone you can attack) from someone who checks to trap you?

[/ QUOTE ]

In general, good hands occurr less often than bad hands, so most of the time two checks means a bad hand.

Also consider the texture of the board, stack size, and previous action.

How dangerous is a free card likely to be to your opponent? If a free card is dangerous, a check is more likely to be a bad hand.

Who was the aggressor in the earlier rounds? Many players check to the raiser no matter what they hold. If you raised and the BB called, a check is less likely to be a bad hand than if UTG raised and you called on the button and then UTG checks the flop and turn.

Paul

MrMon · #8 11-28-2004, 03:00 PM

I think that this is a situation where no matter how you play it, you just are going to lose, because of this key statement: [ QUOTE ]
he was playing a bit on the loose side

[/ QUOTE ] It's all just a question of how much you are going to lose.

That said, let's see what your options were. First off, this is UB, not Party, so the game works differently. Even though blinds are about to go up, they go up much slower than Party. Less of a slam-bang power game and more one of finesse. For this reason, I disagree with the auto-push when under 10x BB. I personally like your 3x bet because it gives you room to manuever.

After your opponent calls, you've got position, so that's to your advantage. The flop comes and not only do you miss, the flop is extremely dangerous. Flops like this are why stop and go is sometimes superior to a push. In case of emergency, you can hit the brakes.

Here, you lose to any pocket pair, AK or the unlikely A4 if your loose opponent is playing any ace. You opponent called a pretty strong raise, that's a warning sign. He checks, trap or sign of desperation? If you bet and he calls, it's a pretty good sign you are beaten. And there's a real chance of that. You currently have enough chips to recover, so check or minimal bet. If he doesn't fold, check it all the way, or fold to any substantial bet. You aren't going to force out any winning hand with a push, and no losing hand will call.

I am still learning to do this, but the best players learn when to lay down beaten hands, even ones that started strong. (I just lost top pair to pocket aces. All the signs were there, I just didn't pay attention.) The pros use all available info and play appropriately. We all need to learn to do the same.

Cartridge · #9 11-28-2004, 05:36 PM

I gotta admit pushing preflop with these stacks/blinds on UB is not something I do.. if I fold on the flop I believe I'd still have alot more opportunities before my stack dwindled to 3x the bb. I'll think about this more, thanks for the reply's.

Helios · #10 11-28-2004, 06:09 PM

To all the preflop push people is it wrong if I were to say bet 800 preflop and the raise the rest no matter what the flop. I am just starting out at SnGs but this stratagy seems more effective than just pushing.

Because for one the people I play with seem to more easily call all ins than simply large bets (maybe cause the added incentive of being able to sit back and getting another player out) Also if you bet no matter what the flop is you may be able to push him out of the pot.

Should I push preflop or is my statagy good?