Whats a small edge? Whats a big edge?

[Whitey]

Hi All

There are alot of posts on this forum regarding chip EV vs $$ EV ,how they are related depending on the skill of your opponents,stage of the tourney etc.. and when it is correct to call or fold depending on your EV in the hand/pot you are playing,how much you have invested in the pot etc...

My question is what is considered a passable margin?

How much EV are you prepared to give up if you think you are one of the better players in the tourney?

I guess if you consider yourself equal to the field in terms of skill then any EV situation that is better than 50% sould be a call for all you chips? or is it?

I'm not sure if I've worded this post in the best way, or weather its actually possible to put figures on an answer, as so much of poker is situational.I'll see what replies I get and try and reword it if neccessary.

Cheers

[Runner Runner]

What you are referring too is what many good players struggle with when faced with close decisions for all their chips. It is also why you see guys like Dan Negreanu or Phil Helmuth sometimes flat calling raises with QQ preflop so that they can get more information before committing a substantial amount of chips. They are giving up some preflop EV with the probable best hand in order to gain this information. Good players want to avoid coin flips as much as possible so they will avoid calling allin with AKo when the blinds are small (moving allin over the top is a different story). They also look to see more flops so that they can get their chips in the pot with a large overlay (65%+ chance of winning) rather then a small one (just over 50% chance of winning: pair vs overcards).

[zaxx19]

My hero Greg Raymer says if you can somehow mathematically convince yourself you have any positive ev you MUST CALL. He recommends calling anything early in a (online)tourney with AK lol.....Even if you dont have a "coin-flip" ( raymer parlance for being a 45-55 dog), youll just suck out against aces with 10's on any WSOP main even final table anyway. And anyway you'll catch ak aq aa 55 in such a quick sucession and with such a big stack you'll probably have virtually no chance of losing anyway so just call and be snappy about it. Oh and be sure too push with the worst hand versus your nemesis suck out and then tell everyone at the table he was destined too bust. This my friends is the winning formula too MTT play so get ready to become a call station after the 1 in 20 tourneys where your are luck enough too accrue a stack by playing marginal hands and just getting lucky.

Oh and by the way if you ever get caught raising a ridiculous sum with suited connectors from your "table captain seat" just call any reraise bc somehow odds will make it look like a correct move. And if you actually fail to suckout, then just take the remainder of your chips and waste it in a flurry of ridiculous all-ins with offsuited middle connectors. Oh and only do this when 2 million dollars is on the line and you are in the final 5 already.(there is a mathematical explanation for this behavior but I wont wast your time right now with it)

Although this post ids delivered in a tongue and cheek style I believe the basic premis behing is rather accurate in describing the mode of play regarded as optimal by alot of players on this board. And it might be.

[Lloyd]

You know Zaxx, you really are a condescending little XXXXXX. You have no clue what you are talking about half the time. You quote people inaccurately. You don't play in anything but low buy-in tournaments yet give advice like you've actually succeeded (i.e. made real money) playing poker. There have been so many discussions on this topic, by great players, yet you are so arrogant that you either cannot admit that you are incorrect or are too blind to see wisdom even when it's repeated over and over and over.

This post went too far. Greg has been a respected and very valuable member of this forum long before he won the WSOP. We are fortunate to be able to benefit from his wisdom and experience, and that of other top players. People like you, well actually, just you at this point, are hurting this forum. Either grow up or get out.

[Lloyd]

Whitey, read this post for a great discussion on this topic by some of the Forum's top players including Paul Phillips.

[binions]

[ QUOTE ]
My hero Greg Raymer says if you can somehow mathematically convince yourself you have any positive ev you MUST CALL. He recommends calling anything early in a (online)tourney with AK lol.....Even if you dont have a "coin-flip" ( raymer parlance for being a 45-55 dog), youll just suck out against aces with 10's on any WSOP main even final table anyway. And anyway you'll catch ak aq aa 55 in such a quick sucession and with such a big stack you'll probably have virtually no chance of losing anyway so just call and be snappy about it. Oh and be sure too push with the worst hand versus your nemesis suck out and then tell everyone at the table he was destined too bust. This my friends is the winning formula too MTT play so get ready to become a call station after the 1 in 20 tourneys where your are luck enough too accrue a stack by playing marginal hands and just getting lucky.

Oh and by the way if you ever get caught raising a ridiculous sum with suited connectors from your "table captain seat" just call any reraise bc somehow odds will make it look like a correct move. And if you actually fail to suckout, then just take the remainder of your chips and waste it in a flurry of ridiculous all-ins with offsuited middle connectors. Oh and only do this when 2 million dollars is on the line and you are in the final 5 already.(there is a mathematical explanation for this behavior but I wont wast your time right now with it)

Although this post ids delivered in a tongue and cheek style I believe the basic premis behing is rather accurate in describing the mode of play regarded as optimal by alot of players on this board. And it might be.

[/ QUOTE ]

You really have no clue, do you?

[zaxx19]

Hmmm ....

Firstly, this is a public forum so you have no business telling people they may or may not post here. Secondly, you are the one slandering my play constantly and using some sort of masked obscenity which I believe is against the purported rules(or spirit thereof) and guidelines set up by 2+2 who generously allows us to use this board.
Thirdly,Ive stated many times I play mainly low buy-in tourneys. I dont find it degrading for you to point this out bc-- 1)i have no employment and 2)tens of thousands of dollars in tuition bills AND 3) only about 6 months of poker experience in my life. .......(on that last point bc ive only played that long i'm leaning towards you guys being correct on MOST points we disagree on.. I believe fear of being wrong isnt a reason not too discuss and present views. If it was every discipline in the history of man would be completely static and the very progress of man retarded.)
I never made fun of the "skill" level of either Greg Raymer or any of the other players in this forum in the post. What I did do; and quite accurately I might add, is transmit the sentiment of alot of posters here in regards to EV and how fundamentally to play MTT NLH tourneys. I used Raymer's play bc it is clearly a prime example of this type of play, and also is quite obviously availible via ESPN.
Specifically which part of my post do you disagree with?? Was that Greg Raymer playing in the 2 million dollar freeroll, or not?? Did I misrepresent what occurred at the freeroll or even what occurred at the WSOP?? If so please alert me so I might be able too properly amend my post.
If you recall the last point I made in the post is that this style might be the optimal in MTT play. Before in other posts I've repeatedly stated that this style probably is OPTIMAL for WINNING large buy-in huge field events such as the WSOP. Was I wrong in saying you will not pass up positive EV(of course this is a more complex concept than odds) at any time early in a tourney?? While I can understand a simmering frustration with my tone...or even frustration at my ignorance in regards too MTT, I never think it is beneficial to silence voices that have the capacity to add even a little bit of knowledge.

[pindawg]

[ QUOTE ]
You know Zaxx, you really are a condescending little XXXXXX. You have no clue what you are talking about half the time. You quote people inaccurately. You don't play in anything but low buy-in tournaments yet give advice like you've actually succeeded (i.e. made real money) playing poker. There have been so many discussions on this topic, by great players, yet you are so arrogant that you either cannot admit that you are incorrect or are too blind to see wisdom even when it's repeated over and over and over.

This post went too far. Greg has been a respected and very valuable member of this forum long before he won the WSOP. We are fortunate to be able to benefit from his wisdom and experience, and that of other top players. People like you, well actually, just you at this point, are hurting this forum. Either grow up or get out.

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of people on these forums seem to be at a loss when it comes to humor.. This is funny, and thats all it's meant to be .. learn to [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] a little

[zaxx19]

Thnx pin , but when it comes too guru Raymer comedy is sacrosanct to these guys....They actually think my pathetic comments will affect a guy who just won 5 million smackeroos. If I won 5 million the only thing bothering me would be rude strippers and overly cut coke...lol [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Whitey]

Thanks for the link,exellent thread.