I'm still losing at o8

[glass_onion]

I'm facing a problem that probably isn't unique only to me, although I will at least admit it. I play poker for money, albeit low limit money. Previously I've always played tournament holdem or limit holdem, sometimes online and sometimes in casino's. I'm the tight player that bluffs opporitunistically and occasionally becomes very loose, then falls back into tightness. Its worked out for me very well for about a year and a half.

I was reading up on o8 and how the experts agree that a smart player could double thier expected winnings with less risk. Holdem is a risky game, so I figured I would commit myself to omaha for a while.

I've been playing about 15 hours per week for 2 months on various sites, milking the 'bonus' and playing tight. I've read the books and I think I have to have a beter understanding of the game and the odds than the $.50/$1.00 players I'm competing with, but my records show a slow and steady decline in money. As it is I've already given back the 'bonus' money at every site I've played at, and I'm down about 20 big bets at one site.

The only thing I can think is that I'm too tight and I still don't have a good read on opponent types, which is where I definetely make my money in holdem. And I was definetelty more comfortable in holdem to put some money in on marginal hands that, even if I lost, would pay me back later in advertising. The thing is, everything I've read about low limit O8 says play tight, wait for greener pastures, bet bet bet when you have the starting hand and a decent flop, and you can't help but make money. I do that. I also chase out the 2nd best hands with my 3rd best high and nut low. Its all very straightforward. And, well, I'm the tight player that keeps loosing.

My typical 4 hours goes like this. I'll hover between 10 big bets above/below where I started the entire time, only occasionally winning or losing a huge hand. I play between 20 and 30% of the pots, depending on what type of cards I get. I probably raise 40% of my hands if I'm in late position, which means I'm rasing a lot more than A2 and AA. I'd raise a34K with the A or K suited in late position. I don' think opponents could rely on me having anything more specific than a 'good' hand when I'm in a pot or when I raise. I usually exit a 4 hour game down 4 big bets, on average.

I also feel that i'm playing on good, loose tables. Probably 55% to 63% of players in a pot, and a lot of people sucking out. Should bode well for the tight player.

I need help. I am going to be buying mike caro's O8 software for myself for christmas, and for a while I will go back to holdem to refresh my love of poker. But I really want to win at this game, so I need help.

Here are my last few hands, just to give you SOME idea that I am actually playing tight, raising/folding somewhat properly. I'm superflous:

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to superfluous [ Ad, 3c, 2c, 8c ]
boady folds.
downtown71 calls (0.5)
Thwack folds.
bigbten folds.
sonofhoney folds.
socratesjr folds.
myshkin9 calls (0.5)
coaster33 folds.
superfluous raises (0.75) to 1
jrod2012 folds.
downtown71 calls (0.5)
myshkin9 calls (0.5)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Kc, 4h, Js ]
superfluous checks.
downtown71 checks.
myshkin9 bets (0.5)
superfluous folds.
downtown71 folds.



** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to superfluous [ Ah, Ad, Jh, 6d ]
nuronerd folds.
superfluous raises (1) to 1 (2nd position)
fun2befree calls (1)
Jimmi256 folds.
jpm11 folds.
ljhcc folds.
Parker2294 folds.
tangent calls (0.5)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Td, As, 4d ]
tangent bets (0.5)
superfluous raises (1) to 1
fun2befree folds.
tangent calls (0.5)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 7h ]
tangent bets (1)
superfluous raises (2) to 2
tangent calls (1)
** Dealing River ** : [ 6s ]
tangent bets (1)
superfluous calls (1)
** Summary **
Main Pot: $10.75 | Rake: $0.5
Board: [ Td As 4d 7h 6s ]
fun2befree balance $15.56, lost $1 (folded)
Jimmi256 balance $104.88, didn't bet (folded)
montman balance $25.5, sits out
jpm11 balance $26.5, didn't bet (folded)
ljhcc balance $33.29, didn't bet (folded)
Parker2294 balance $44.5, lost $0.25 (folded)
bailfla balance $9.39, sits out
tangent balance $27.25, bet $5, collected $10.75, net +$5.75 [ 5c 2c 3h Jd ] [ LO: 6,4,3,2,A | HI: a straight, three to seven -- 7h,6s,5c,4d,3h ]
nuronerd balance $24.75, didn't bet (folded)
superfluous balance $1.5, lost $5 [ Ah Ad Jh 6d ] [ three of a kind, aces -- Ah,Ad,As,Td,7h


Dealt to superfluous [ Ac, 6c, 6d, 9d ]
downtown71 folds.
Thwack calls (0.5)
bigbten calls (0.5)
sonofhoney folds.
socratesjr folds.
myshkin9 calls (0.5)
coaster33 calls (0.5)
superfluous folds.
jrod2012 calls (0.25)


** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to superfluous [ 2s, Th, 5c, Ts ]
Thwack calls (0.5)
bigbten calls (0.5)
sonofhoney folds.
socratesjr folds.
myshkin9 folds.
coaster33 calls (0.5)
superfluous folds.


If you guys need more hand histories, let me know. OR ask questions. I don't know what else to include to help you help me.

Thanks for any advice.
-GO

[Yads]

Don't get discouraged. You say you've been playing for 2 weeks. Don't get discouraged. It sounds like your cards just aren't coming in. I would like to point out with the Ah, Ad, Jh, 6d hand. You don't have much hope for a low so when he's still betting into you after you've raised him on the flop means he's got some kind of hand probably low with a good chance of picking up high. Not sure if you should be playing your high that aggressively considering you have no shot for low and he's still betting into you. I'd also suggest to drop down in limits until you get your confidence back. Keep at it and don't get discouraged.

[DPCondit]

Just keep posting hands for analysis, people will be happy to look at them.

[ QUOTE ]

I need help. I am going to be buying mike caro's O8 software for myself for christmas, and for a while I will go back to holdem to refresh my love of poker. But I really want to win at this game, so I need help.


[/ QUOTE ]

Mike Caro has O8 software? I've never heard of it.

Don

[glass_onion]

Actually, I've been playing money 08 for two months, and probably a year before that in play money sites following a surgery. So I feel like I've learned most of what I will ever learn, save for what my new wilson's 08 software which arrives friday will teach me.

I'm also already playing the lowest limits, $50/1.00 or 1/2 on every site out there, so the competition isn't going to get easier.

As for the AA hand, I guess I thought Iplayed it pretty well. He hit an inside straight, and while my low was weak as hell, that wasn't even a low until the river. I've always read that the idea with AA hands is limit hte competition (which in this case I was heads up) and barring terrible flops (like flush flops and high pairs) bet like hell because you've got the better odds. I also felt as if that opponent would fold to continued presure, especially from me, because I play so tight and typically only bet the nuts and everyone knows it.

Thanks for you advice,
-GO

[beernutz]

You were a 54:46 favorite after the flop on your AA hand. Even though you flopped the nuts with the nut flush redraw he flopped a wheel wrap. The fact that you think he hit an inside straight might be part of your problem. Look at it from his POV--there is no way he's going to drop that hand before the river. Would you?

[pergesu]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, I've been playing money 08 for two months, and probably a year before that in play money sites following a surgery. So I feel like I've learned most of what I will ever learn, save for what my new wilson's 08 software which arrives friday will teach me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like you're just going to keep losing then. The fact is, after a year of play money and two months of real money play, you haven't learned anywhere near enough to be a great player, and probably not even a successful one. Certainly if you're still a losing player, there's a lot to learn. If you haven't yet done so, I recommend getting Ray Zee's High-Low Split book, as well as Sklansky's Theory of Poker. Not only do you need to learn about Omaha specifically, but you need to be well-grounded in basic poker concepts. Study these books, keep playing a lot, and post questions here frequently. Being a winning player takes some work. If you're not willing to put it in, you're always going to lose.

[Beavis68]

O8b is a monumentally complex game, and it is deceptively complex.

It changes drastically with the number of players that see the flop and play on from there on.

Beating a game where seven see the flop and 4 see the river is very forgiving and profitable.

A game where 4-5 see flop and it is heads-up afterwards is brutal and challengning as you can see by your AA hand. And BTW, you had not low on the river the way I read it

[Pokermonger]

I play .50/1 O/8 and am showing a slight profit so take this advice for what it's worth, which might not be much.

On the first hand (A 3 2 8) I would not have folded to a single bet on the flop. At this point it is heads up and your opponent can't have a made hand. The best he can have is trip Kings. If, and this is a big if, he does have trip Kings, you still have a small chance to win high with runner runner for a straight or a flush. However, he may be on a stright draw or just have top pair. In adition if the turn and river are both low you have a nut low. This is only advice for low limits, at higher limits the fold is probably closer to correct.

On the second hand (A A J 6) I would have played it exactly as you did because if the board paired or if another diamond fell you would have the nut high.

On the last two, I agree with both folds.

In these low limit games, I rarely raise preflop because the possibility of getting heads up before the flop is remote. In addition, in most of the games I play a preflop raise screems AAxx and greatly defines the hand. I have found that even without raising preflop and waiting until I have a made hand or am a favorite on a draw that I still get paid off.

Remember that at low levels most of your profit comes from solid straightforward play and your opponents mistakes.

Hope this helps.

[beernutz]

[ QUOTE ]
I play .50/1 O/8 and am showing a slight profit so take this advice for what it's worth, which might not be much.

On the first hand (A 3 2 8) I would not have folded to a single bet on the flop. At this point it is heads up and your opponent can't have a made hand. The best he can have is trip Kings. If, and this is a big if, he does have trip Kings, you still have a small chance to win high with runner runner for a straight or a flush. However, he may be on a stright draw or just have top pair. In adition if the turn and river are both low you have a nut low. This is only advice for low limits, at higher limits the fold is probably closer to correct.

On the second hand (A A J 6) I would have played it exactly as you did because if the board paired or if another diamond fell you would have the nut high.

On the last two, I agree with both folds.

In these low limit games, I rarely raise preflop because the possibility of getting heads up before the flop is remote. In addition, in most of the games I play a preflop raise screems AAxx and greatly defines the hand. I have found that even without raising preflop and waiting until I have a made hand or am a favorite on a draw that I still get paid off.

Remember that at low levels most of your profit comes from solid straightforward play and your opponents mistakes.

Hope this helps.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising the turn with what is very likely to be a one-way hand is not a good move once the possible low is on the board, IMO. If you check twodimes, the AA hand has become about a 61:39 dog when the turn card hits. It could have been worse too, should he have been up against 2356 instead of 235J. He is close to being freerolled at this point.

[beernutz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I play .50/1 O/8 and am showing a slight profit so take this advice for what it's worth, which might not be much.

On the first hand (A 3 2 8) I would not have folded to a single bet on the flop. At this point it is heads up and your opponent can't have a made hand. The best he can have is trip Kings. If, and this is a big if, he does have trip Kings, you still have a small chance to win high with runner runner for a straight or a flush. However, he may be on a stright draw or just have top pair. In adition if the turn and river are both low you have a nut low. This is only advice for low limits, at higher limits the fold is probably closer to correct.

On the second hand (A A J 6) I would have played it exactly as you did because if the board paired or if another diamond fell you would have the nut high.

On the last two, I agree with both folds.

In these low limit games, I rarely raise preflop because the possibility of getting heads up before the flop is remote. In addition, in most of the games I play a preflop raise screems AAxx and greatly defines the hand. I have found that even without raising preflop and waiting until I have a made hand or am a favorite on a draw that I still get paid off.

Remember that at low levels most of your profit comes from solid straightforward play and your opponents mistakes.

Hope this helps.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising the turn with what is very likely to be a one-way hand is not a good move once the possible low is on the board, IMO. If you check twodimes, the AA hand has become about a 61:39 dog when the turn card hits. It could have been worse too, should he have been up against 2356 instead of 235J. He is close to being freerolled at this point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops, I didn't look at the cards closely enough, because the AA hand IS being freerolled after the turn.