A fairly common JJ situation.

AdamL · #1 11-24-2004, 05:21 PM

Up against typical loose or slightly loose and usually passive Party players. An ace or otherwise higher card flops and you are called to the river, without any particularly obvious draws on the board. Do you keep hammering?

I think I'm missing a lot of value bets on the river, but it is hard to tell without being results oriented.

If he has an ace, he's calling my river bet for sure. But he might call sometimes with a worse hand. OTOH, he might be happy to check down with a weak ace. Thoughts?

Couple of hard examples:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
5 folds, MP3 calls, CO raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, BB calls $1 (All-In), MP3 folds, CO calls.

Flop: (8.33 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)
Hero bets, CO calls.

Turn: (5.16 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)
Hero bets, CO calls.

River: (7.16 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)
Hero...?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, CO calls, 3 folds.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

River: (5.75 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero ...?

One final question -- both of these examples have me out of position. If I am in position, when it is checked to me, does that change significantly the situation? I still see him check-calling a weak ace.

mistrpug · #2 11-24-2004, 05:32 PM

I usually check/call. Then I get pissed if my opponent checks behind with middle pair and I missed my value bet.

I also struggle in this spot and am curious to see what others say about these hadns...

Walrus · #3 11-24-2004, 05:53 PM

This is one of the big dillemas we all face at 2/4 and 3/6, and maybe even higher, but I've not gone there yet. Here's how I play it now, but I'm not completely sure it's the optimal way to do so...

Either way (first to act or last to act), I keep firing until they crack back. Then, depending on when that is, decide if it's worth calling down. As I hate to fold a hand like JJ, I usually end up calling it down.

But if they just call the whole way, I'd rather be the aggressor. Who knows, a weak ace may fold once in a blue moon...

BusterStacks · #4 11-24-2004, 06:28 PM

Here's how I think, will the river bet:

a) make a better hand fold. no

b) get a call from a worse hand. yes

c) get raised due to the river card. no

2 out of 3 favorable, I think you need to bet here.

mistrpug · #5 11-24-2004, 07:07 PM

If you bet the river, do you call a raise?

runa · #6 11-24-2004, 06:46 PM

I think I prefer to make a value bet here since I'm planning on calling anyway if I check. Worse hands will call and if called, and loose bad calling stations will call you down with a variety of hands and it isn't necessarily an ace.

MarkD · #7 11-24-2004, 07:18 PM

For these types of hands I have decided it is generally best to bet if you are first to act. If you are last to act then checking is often correct IMO.

When you are first to act checking:
1) rarely induces a bluff
2) allows a better hand to bet with confidence and since you checked you almost have to call that bet.
3) allows a worse hand to check behind you (which he will often do) - a worse hand that often would have called had you bet

There are a few other points I can't think of right now, but I think these 3 strongly favor betting when you are first to act and it basically comes down to this: in this type of situation you are a bigger dog when you check and call than if you bet and get called. (Said another way: Both options may have a -EV (with respect to the river only), but check/calling has a more -EV than betting.)

TripleH68 · #8 11-24-2004, 07:51 PM

I can't imagine any ace ever folding either of these rivers for one bet, but I have seen weak aces check behind.

MarkD · #9 11-24-2004, 08:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I can't imagine any ace ever folding either of these rivers for one bet

[/ QUOTE ]

Did I say that they would? I don't remember saying that.

[ QUOTE ]
but I have seen weak aces check behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not as often as they would bet. And not as often as you would see hands that hero has beat actually call hero's bet. Of course these are just my opinions based on my experience. I do agree with you that these situations never play the same way but I do believe that more often than not betting the river is much better than checking with the intention of calling - now if you are talking about check/folding then that is a different story.

TripleH68 · #10 11-24-2004, 08:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can't imagine any ace ever folding either of these rivers for one bet

[/ QUOTE ]

Did I say that they would? I don't remember saying that.

[ QUOTE ]
but I have seen weak aces check behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not as often as they would bet. And not as often as you would see hands that hero has beat actually call hero's bet. Of course these are just my opinions based on my experience. I do agree with you that these situations never play the same way but I do believe that more often than not betting the river is much better than checking with the intention of calling - now if you are talking about check/folding then that is a different story.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was surely not implying that you said someone would fold a weak ace. I am just saying that if the villain has Ax you are stuck and there is no reason to ride this hand through the river every time. The decision must be based on your read of the player and the board. There is no "perfect" advice or way to play this hand.