JJ Multi-way too strong, too weak, or both?

[Toonces]

10-20 Potawatomi table. Table is loose. Villian in MP1 is loose and semi-aggressive.

Hero has J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in big blind.

5 players limp in. SB Completes. Hero Raises. everyon calls.

Flop (14 SB): A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

BB bets. UTG calls. UTG+1 folds. UTG+2 calls. Villian calls. MP3 folds. Button calls. SB folds

Turn (9.5 BB): 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Hero checks. UTG checks. UTG+2 checks. Villian bets. Button Folds. Hero calls. UTG folds. UTG+2 folds.

River (11.5 BB): 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Hero Checks. Villian bets. Hero Folds.

My biggest concern on this hand is whether I should have folded the river. My thought when the hand was going on was that villian had a hand, or he wouldn't be betting into 4 others on this flop. Later, I realized that he could have just had a K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. On the other hand his play is also consistant with a bad ace or flopping a good made flush. My hunch is that I played it wrong.

My other concern is whether I should lead out on the flop here. I don't want to give the Queen or King of Hearts a free card, and I may make small aces fold. Is this a flop too scary to bet, between the overcard and the flop? And if I am betting the flop, should I continue to bet when I get 4 callers and a blank comes?

[Stork]

I think you gotta call this, the pot is 12.5 BB and he could easily have something like K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[king_kobra]

Does this loose semi-agressive player raise pre-flop with any ace? If so, he definately didn't have aces and probably didn't have anything. Probably should have looked him up. Well played other than the fold.

[Toonces]

I don't think he's the kind of guy to raise any ace. He is probably a 35-40% VPIP/ 5% PFR. But he's also a tricky post-flop player, so I wouldn't be surprised if waited to raise his flush on the turn. I think the only hands I have beat that he would play that way are KQ, KJ, KT, K9, QJ or QT (where the K or Q is a heart). I'm losing to any 2 hearts or Ax.

But, I do agree that I need to call him down here. I think a big problem I have right now is thinking about everything I need to before I act. I'd also be surpised to see him play a K8. I'm sure that if I considered the lone K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] as a possible hand for him I would have called, but it hadn't occured to me until after I acted. Any advice, other than practice and better concentration?

[TStoneMBD]

bet the flop/turn. your hand may be good here and you have a solid draw. the turn is getting bet if you check so you might as well follow through. the river is a standard call because as you noted he could just have Khx

[Noo Yawk]

I would have bet the turn and hoped the loose aggro MP1 raises. I don't want to give free cards to a lone K or Q, and I want to put pressure on all draws and Aces. If I felt MP1 would bet if checked to but not raise, I would check-raise the turn myself. Folding the river isn't even a consideration. This is a big pot and you need to do what you can to win it.

[amulet]

with 7 seeing the flop someone most likely had an A. add to that that if a heart comes (which is not a fav to happen), you still may not be best. i like your raiseing here in bb, you have a positive expection, however, with so many seeing the flop, your jacks are not going to hold up most times. for those who see the two sentences as conflicting, while you loose more often then not, over time in that situation, you win more $ then you loose, it is not the number of pots you win, it is the total $ over many similar situations. back to the had: once i see that flop, i assume i am beat. IF i were to bet out, i would be done when called in 3 places.

[TStoneMBD]

amulet i dont think he had any questions about raising pf here as raising out of the bb with jacks is clearly correct.

[amulet]

i agree. is it seemed condescending i am sorry. however, for others reading it it might help.

i'll add one thing to my earlier post, my guess is that at least one post flop caller had an A, and another probably had the boss K.