QQ UTG - surrender after flop???

[easypete]

Party 3/6

Table make-up is pretty decent. Only 2 players w/ TA-A stats, the rest are LP-P to LA-A.

Preflop:Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] UTG.

I raise, UTG+2 cold calls (TA-A), MP3 cold calls (TA-A). Everyone else folds.

Now this is where I should be very afraid, right? both of these players have VPIP < 17%, pfr > 7%, and AF of > 2. This should throw up big flags, right?

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

I bet, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls.

I'm done w/ this hand... my strategy is to check fold the turn if I don't spike a Q, right?

Turn: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

check fold mode.... right?

[LaggyLou]

No way. What are two TA-A players cold-calling with here that beats you? AK reraises. AA and KK reraises. KQs? I have to think a good player lays it down to an UTG raise, plus you have 2 Qs. JJ reraises. TT-88, or AQ is what I see as their most likely holdings -- perhaps medium suited connectors for the second coldcaller if he likes to get frisky.

Maybe I'm spewing chips too much in these spots, but I don't see a single overcard and these two opponents as much cause for alarm just yet. I bet out on the turn.

[easypete]

[ QUOTE ]
What are two TA-A players cold-calling with here that beats you? AK reraises. AA and KK reraises. KQs?

[/ QUOTE ]

The rest of the table is target rich.

I've played over 2k hands w/ each of the TA-A's. Neither one has more than 2% cold-call pf.

If I'm holding a premium hand in UTG+2, I don't want to scare business away on this table with a 3-bet. The VPIP for this table is over 40% average (including the TA-A's stats).

[sublime]

lou-

what range of hands do you put the callers on after they both call the flop?

[cjromero]

I think you are giving up too quickly on this hand. I would bet the turn and likely fold to a turn raise. If they really are tight/aggressive, they would almost certainly reraise any hand that has you beat preflop. They could easily have AJ and 10-10, respectively.

[sublime]

They could easily have AJ and 10-10, respectively.

TT is not calling that flop. AJs is a possability though

[easypete]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you are giving up too quickly on this hand. I would bet the turn and likely fold to a turn raise. If they really are tight/aggressive, they would almost certainly reraise any hand that has you beat preflop. They could easily have AJ and 10-10, respectively.

[/ QUOTE ]

AJ and TT would be good hands to be against, but I don't think either would cold-call with these hands, it would be too much of a risk. If I were UTG+2 or MP3 with either of these, I would 3-bet pf or raise the flop w/ AJ and fold TT.

And I agree w/ Sublime... I don't buy that either player has TT after the flop.

edit: And yes, I posted this hand, because I feel that I may have given up on this too early, but don't know how I could have played it better.

[LaggyLou]

[ QUOTE ]

what range of hands do you put the callers on after they both call the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

No doubt that their calling confuses the hell out of me. I see A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], AJs (BLEAH on the coldcall with this!), and a slowplayed AA as the most likely hands. I just don't buy coldcalling KK or JJ preflop--I WANT to chase the bad players off their Ax with KK and I WANT players out with JJ. I'm also not so sure we can discount TT-88, at least for the middle guy, but that's more of a read-questioning thought because of the passive play.

[Fat Nicky]

You need to bet this turn and prepare to fold to a raise.

What hands do TAGs cold-call with pre-flop?? If there are any hands they cold-call with, they are mid pockets (TT - 77), and suited broadways (AQs, KQs, etc.). Out of these hands, they only hands you're behind to at this point is KQs and KJs. After the flop, I rule out KQs because a TAG would have raised. KJs is still possible b/c they could be waiting for the turn to raise. Your only way to find out is to bet the turn here.

[StellarWind]

Guess what? Your opponents are not you. Having TAG stats does not make them perfect players. They may not know or follow the favorite 2+2 rules. You are reading way too much into this situation.

[ QUOTE ]
I've played over 2k hands w/ each of the TA-A's. Neither one has more than 2% cold-call pf.

[/ QUOTE ]
A PT coldcall rate of 2% is about ten times the correct amount. Remember that this stat is based on all hands played, not opportunities to coldcall. This is hardly a selling point for your argument.

You need to get a grip on yourself. Online poker is a very lonely activity. Most of your opponents are fish whom you cannot identify with. It's very easy to develop an emotional connection to the few other decent players that you play a lot of hands with. They seem like colleagues. You start projecting your own thoughts and beliefs onto them.

Your objectivity goes out the window.

My experience is that very few tight players outside this forum are willing to fold any of their usual UTG hands when someone raises in front of them. Hands like ATs, KQo, and 88 are going to see the flop. Furthermore, they are not necessarily going to reraise preflop or raise the flop just because we think calling is too passive.

It is impossible to be certain what is going on here. I keep pushing the ladies until someone makes a stand.