Please Help: Bankroll management-1st year of Poker and STUCK.

[GameTheory]

Hi everyone,
This is my first post on here, however, let me give you a brief backround of my situation first:

I started playing poker online about 11 months ago. I made the mistake of starting with 1/2 NL before reading any books or learning anything. To make a long story short, I played these 1/2NL tables by purchasing a table max buy in every week with 1/2 of my paycheck(200$). Obviously I would have my win streaks, but of course-since I knew very little about +EV etc.-I ended up losing everything 100% of the time. My position on Bank Roll management was: If I have enough to buy into the table for a session, I have enough to play.(See where I am going with this?)

Well as of now, in my 11th month of playing, I have lost a total of around 5K playing poker. I am a much better player now, and have read loads and studied tons of information. However, I always have the feeling that I need to win it all back in a day;but, clearly I don't have the BR to accomplish that. At any rate, I am getting alot smarter with the limits I play--Nothing higher than 3/6 limit and .5/1 NL. Another problem is that when I reach a bad -30-40BB losing streak, I just about ALWAYS take what I have left to a 5/10 or 10/20 game and either lose it all or win it back.

My question is to people who have become winning players--'How long did it take you to become "winning" players? and is what I am going through normal for an unexperienced player that had no real correct concept on Bank roll requirements for a game?

I'd really like as many people as possible to give me some really solid and sound advice on the best way to go about playing poker here on out i.e. what game to start with, what should I do when I have a bad run, good run, money management, etc etc.
I give you all my word, that I will listen to all of your advice word for word and take it into great consideration.

PS. Don't start flame wars with each other please. If someone gives bad advice, just kindly note why it was bad, and we'll keep the discussion going.

THANK YOU ALL VERY MUCH.

Jake (YouHeDad on PS)

[spentrent]

You know what's going on. Just be patient and play a game where you can afford to lose 20 buy-ins and still be able to take care of non-poker business.

Treat poker like heroin until you can consistently beat a game.

BTW I did the same thing as you until it hit me that my win streaks were due to luck, not skill. I had $200 in my account when I got the balls to try bigger things. I won four straight $50 SNGs. Then I lost that plus a whole lot more. Now I get it. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[Reef]

One of the most winningest players I know online was a losing player for 7 years before he started to make bank.

As for me, I started with the whole teacher and poker library thing so I had a positive start

[Fabian]

As far as I can tell you've been playing bad in the past. What I mean by that is mostly not managing your bankroll correctly. Now you've seem to have realized what mistakes you've made, so now is the time to start over again, and doing it right.

Deposit $2-300 and start playing 0.5/1. It is critically important you don't play higher than your bankroll allows, I think you know this very well by now but it's important to point it out. When you have grown your bankroll to $5-600, start playing 1/2. DON'T play higher than your bankroll allows. Please don't.

If this goes well, start playing 2/4 when your bankroll reaches $1200. Make sure you're not winning due to luck while playing a losing game, because if you truly are a losing player you will lose your whole bankroll back eventually and all the hours you've put in will be for nothing. If you're beating the games move to 3/6 at about $1800-2000. As you can see, I'm using the 300BB rule for your bankroll requirements.

You seem to handle downswings in a not so very good way. Try not to worry to much about it, easier said than done but you must learn this eventually. I still suck at it too by the way. If you feel your play gets worse when you're stuck it is (and this is the most important advice I'll give you) EXTREMELY important to stop playing immediately, take a break for a few hours or the rest of the day or two days or however long it takes in order to return to the tables with your A game. I think tilting makes up for a very large part of a players total losses, probably more than most would think. Avoid tilt.

If you lose 40-50BB I think you should examine your game closely and try and figure out what (if) you do wrong. Are you overly aggressive postflop with strong but not very strong hands? Stuff like that? Be critical to yourself. Very critical.

You might want to move down a level during a downswing like this and replenish your bankroll. If you handle the stress of downswings badly (which seems to be the case) I recommend doing this.

Read Small stakes holdem by Ed Miller.

Btw I recommend you play on partypoker, I definately think that's the best site to play low limit on (and higher too for that matter).

Good luck. Don't play above your bankroll. 300 big bets.

[Blarg]

I would just say that if bankroll management has been a particular problem for you, you should consider managing it even more strictly as a result.

300 BB is a common bankroll figure, but it's quite possible to either lose that much or lose enough of it so that it starts to affect your play -- making you skittish, doubtful, etc. Maybe even over-aggressive, as you try to get your money back in a hurry.

Therefore, to avoid both financial and psychological pressures, perhaps you should worry a lot less about moving up and just let your bankroll grow to a more sizeable amount before you think of moving up. 400 or 500 BB isn't an amount so far beyond 300 BB that it's a bitter ordeal to get there - and if it is, you should stay at the level you're at anyway, and improve your game until it's NOT that hard to earn the extra money there.

The psychological and financial stability you will gain from doing that could be very significant.

[pzhon]

Bankroll management is a topic for winning players. I see no indication that you are a winning player at any level, yet you are taking shots at $10-$20 on PokerStars. Are you serious? You have already lost far more than is necessary to bankroll a winning player at the limits you normally play.

Move down a lot more until you start winning, and stay there until you understand why you are winning.

[GameTheory]

Thank you all for your advise thus far.

Pzhon-I never said I was a "winning" player, in fact, I pointed out that I'm overall -5k overall. I am asking for help, advise, and moral support, as to what I should do in the future, and most successful ways to manage Bank Roll while playing limits.

I am confident that I can become a winning player if I can stay within my BR requirements..300BB seems to be standard rate. Just to give you a good idea how out of line I was--I WAS PLAYING 2/4, 3/6, 5/10, 10/20, WITH 200-600$ BANKROLL LOL..So, one negative swing, and I'm broke!

[ds914]

You gotta start studying. You can concentrate on bankroll management tireleslly, but until you know play a winning game, your money still's going to trickle away. A book like Winning Low Limit Hold'em is great for a beginner -- easy to understand and just the nuts and bolts. You can get through it in a day, but you'll want to reread it a couple times.

Good luck!

[IlliniRyRy]

[ QUOTE ]
One of the most winningest players I know online was a losing player for 7 years before he started to make bank.


[/ QUOTE ]

No offense, but I think this comment is misleading and counterproductive for this guy. At the low limits, if you apply the basic strategies in the books (I recommend the Lee Jones book BTW), you should make money right away. When I say right away, I mean you should definitely be substantially ahead after 20k hands or so. I read the books before I starting playing for real money, and then I played 1-2 for over a year until I was fully confident I was beating the game before I moved up. GameTheory, I think your compulsiveness with playing in too big of games for your bankroll describes exactly how you play as well. I guarantee you're going too far with your hands postflop and you lack discipline. It must be impossible for some people to get beyond this for some reason, since there seems to be an infinite amount of people out there making the same mistakes over and over again. Here's the best and cheapest thing you can do, and it's the best because it's a true test of whether or not you have the discipline: read the books again and play nothing but 50c/$1 limit for 50k hands. if you haven't made at least $500 (1bb/100), then your game needs serious improvement and you shouldn't move up. Doing so will only cost you more money. If you can't deal with the tediousness of playing in such a low limit, then there's no way you're going to be a winning player. Good luck.

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you all for your advise thus far.
Pzhon-I never said I was a "winning" player, in fact, I pointed out that I'm overall -5k...
I am confident that I can become a winning player if I can stay within my BR requirements..300BB seems to be standard rate.

[/ QUOTE ]
You are welcome.

I still don't think you understand what it means to have a bankroll. Bankrolls are for players who win. Bankrolls do not convert losers into winners. A good player who does not have a sufficient bankroll runs a significant risk of going broke, and not being able to play anymore; 300 BB is supposed to be enough to make that rare for someone who wins 1 BB/hour. On the other hand, a losing player will burn through any amount of money. Losing players don't have bankrolls. They have budgets for their gambling losses.

If you want poker to be a lucrative activity rather than an expensive hobby, you need to become a winning player. That is a matter of learning how to play well, not finding a bankroll. When I suggest moving down, to penny-ante if necessary, it is not because you are adequately bankrolled for microlimits. It is because there are skills you should acquire at lower limits. Move up when you have the skills, not the bankroll.