Pot Odds Question

[Chet Perrigo]

On a flop decision should I use turn odds only or both turn and river odds to justify a call or fold?

For example:
3 players in the pot on the flop
12 small bets in the pot
I have 10s 10h
flop: A h 7s 7d
BB Check, I check, button bets, and BB calls.

I know button has ak or aq...should I use the turn odds or both turn and river odds to call.
I have a total of 2 outs to make my hand with a total 14 small bets in the pot. Turn odds 22.5:1 or Turn & River Odds 10.88:1, which one does a player use? Obviously a clear fold if you use just turn odds, but a clear call if I use both turn and river. Thanks in advance [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[LaggyLou]

River odds are decidedly not 10.88:1 inasmuch as even if you spike a T on the turn he has A redraws. Even if they were, it is not a clear call unless you are going all-in because you cannot reasonably expect AK or AQ to check it through on the turn.

Given the redraws and the possibility that the button will fold AK or AQ to a turn check-raise, I don't even think you can call for the implied odds.

One more thing -- bet the flop.

[Cooker]

If you are going to use river odds, you must calculate the effective pot odds including the likely bet you will have to call on the turn. For this example situation, you should use 14 small bets + 2 small bets (turn bet of the button)=16 bets for the pot and 1 small bet (bet to call now) + 2 small bets (bet you will probably have to call on the turn) for the bet. So it appears you are getting 16 to 3 in effective pot odds or 5.3 to 1 odds to go to the river. Looks like an obvious fold to me. You could also include the big blinds turn call into the pot if you know this guy is a calling station, but I generally tend to err on the conservative side. Even with this and implied odds, I doubt this becomes a reasonable call if you really think you are up against an ace.

If the pot wasn't raised before the flop, the button could be betting with anything though. As the other person the responded said, it would probably have been best to come out firing at this one.