100-200 Hand

[HiatusOver]

Online 6-Handed game 100-200

My opponent in this hand I have far from a good read on. Of the 5 other players in the game I would say he is either the 2nd or 3rd best but there was only one solid regular in the game and two losing players(which is why I decided to make a rare appearance).

I am dealt 10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in the big blind.
UTG folds, Next Player RAISES, 3-folds to me and I call.

Flop ($450 in pot): K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I CHECK, he BETS, I RAISE, he 3-BETS, I CAP.

My plan now is to bet the turn no matter what card comes and to fold to a raise if unimproved.

TURN ($1250 in pot): 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (K,10,5,8 2 hearts)

I bet, Opponent RAISES, I 3-BET


The rest of the hand and some results later, but I would love to get some discussion going on this hand to this point. I don't post hands up here often at all, but this one really got me thinking. I certainly have my own opinions and own concepts I want to discuss about this hand but I would love to hear some responses first so I dont bias the conversation.

[SaintAces]

or were you very serious when you said "far from a read"

[HiatusOver]

If you paused time ala "Small Wonder" and asked me in that 2-5 seconds between him 3-betting and me capping what range I would put him on I would have responsed something like this. I think he would 3-bet OFTEN like way more than 50 percent of the time with AJ,AQ,QJ and probably even Q9,J9?...I wasnt sure how we would play top pair, but I thought AK, KQ, KJ he was probably 40 percent likely to 3-bet and 60 percent likely to call the flop and raise the turn. K-10 or a set again I dont really know but i guess it could go either way between 3-betting or waiting for the turn, for some reason i was thinking (hoping maybe) that if he had a real strong like that he would often wait for turn. Any 10 I thought he would probably just call the flop...then on to hopeless hands that I crushed or down to 3 outs, not sure what he would do with all of these but I guess you have to factor in some moves sometimes, although as James pointed out in a thread yesterday usually that flop 3-bet is not an all-out bluff because noone ever lays down to it.

[James282]

Since you took the time to respond to my post I'll take the time to respond to yours! Well I actually wrote and deleted a few responses so maybe this hand is a little more interesting than I had originally thought.

Preflop is obvious.

The Flop is where it gets interesting. With so many players three-betting for free cards now(chooks and experts alike) I think the cap is an interesting information gathering tool. Mostly because I think he can muck JJ and QQ on the turn if he's a pretty good player and he might muck AT on the river.

But let's say he just calls the turn - I guess you need to have to same bet and fold to a raise plan for the river? Well, I guess it depends on the card. I have to drive my brother to a football game or I'd go into more detail as to which cards would make me take which strategy(and it also highly depends on how the turn card effects the dynamic of the hand - a Q or a J could make the river card more interesting).

But assuming the turn blanks I think a check-call is in order on the river if he just calls your turn bet(I think he's unlikely to call jacks or queens on the turn and fold them on the river, but it's unlikely he'll find a value bet, either).

As to how the hand played out, that 8 is absolutely perfect, I think you have misrepresented your hand well enough that he's thrown one last raise out there with AK or KQ or whatever and unless he was fastplaying you on the flop with a set you're golden with most river cards here, and I'd value bet just about any river(I think you can bet and fold to a raise if an Ace comes).
-James

[mike l.]

you totally overplayed your hand in my opinion. i dont see the point in capping that flop or betting and planning to fold to a raise on the turn. in fact the turn play, after all those bets went in on the flop, is hideous because you would be getting correct implied odds to see the river by then.

youre better off treading lightly and trying to get to a showdown for as few bets as possible here.

[HiatusOver]

"in fact the turn play, after all those bets went in on the flop, is hideous because you would be getting correct implied odds to see the river by then."

If I definitely have all 5 outs and can get in the check-raise on the river then this is true, but how often will I have 5 outs after I cap the flop and then bet the turn and he still raises me. I would say not close to enough to really include any outs for implied odds, I really think the turn is a definite fold after all this action unimproved, you could easily be drawing dead 30-40 percent of the time.

"youre better off treading lightly and trying to get to a showdown for as few bets as possible here."

So you are saying check-call, check-call and what on the river unimproved?

[Dantes]

I think you played it great considering its online and there's a 4 bet cap heads up. I like the whole thing.

[ QUOTE ]
But assuming the turn blanks I think a check-call is in order on the river if he just calls your turn bet(I think he's unlikely to call jacks or queens on the turn and fold them on the river, but it's unlikely he'll find a value bet, either).

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense but you really need to rethink your game if you don't think a reasonably decent high limit player will not value bet QQ or JJ if you check the river. Come on.

[Gabe]

[ QUOTE ]
So you are saying check-call, check-call and what on the river unimproved?


[/ QUOTE ]

Check-call.

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]
But assuming the turn blanks I think a check-call is in order on the river if he just calls your turn bet(I think he's unlikely to call jacks or queens on the turn and fold them on the river, but it's unlikely he'll find a value bet, either).


[/ QUOTE ]

Checkcalling sucks because QQ JJ would DEF. would call. If you are checking it's with intentions to checkraise which is super-[censored]-hot-move here.

[mike l.]

"If I definitely have all 5 outs and can get in the check-raise on the river then this is true, but how often will I have 5 outs after I cap the flop and then bet the turn and he still raises me. I would say not close to enough to really include any outs for implied odds, I really think the turn is a definite fold after all this action unimproved, you could easily be drawing dead 30-40 percent of the time."

he could have AK for instance. that would not be an unreasonable hand to raise the turn with even after you cap it on the flop. same for AA obviously. and maybe even KQ depending on what he thinks of you. or even less.

"So you are saying check-call, check-call and what on the river unimproved?"

call. or fold. or bet. i dont know. it's all player dependent. there are some players where it would make sense to just call the flop and then bet the turn. or check-call both and then bet the river. or check call the whole way. or checkraise the flop and then check call down. or or or.

but i dont like the route you took. too many chips going in the pot there on the flop w/ too mediocre a hand. if you dont trust the guy then let him hang himself dont try to pound him over the head w/ T 8 kicker. it's not worth putting in 2 bbs on the flop to find out youre drawing thin and then stop drawing.