Second Post - Help with AA, AK (TPTK) pressured on the turn

JackKingoff · #1 11-13-2004, 10:20 AM

This thread I'm going to post a few recent AK hands I've had trouble with. Since playing on P.room, I've found AKo/AQo to be 2 of my worst performing holdings.

Again, the theme of being led into on the turn after you've shown strength all the way through.

This is 1/2 Pokerroom, table is playing loose, and for the most part passive.

Hand #1

My goal in raising the turn was to knock out the blinds and make it HU, which didn't work. In hindsight, calling the river was useless as surely I was drawing dead to at least 1 hand. Is folding to the 3-bet on the turn an option?

Hand #2: 3 Bet the turn, assuming AA is the only hand that beats me

PokerRoom 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, 2 folds, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (9 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP3 bets, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP3 3-bets, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls.

River: (21 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Final Pot: 25 BB

PokerRoom 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. UTG posts a blind of $1.
UTG (poster) checks, Hero raises, 7 folds, UTG 3-bets, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero raises, UTG 3-bets, Hero calls.

River: (10.75 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.75 BB

I have essentially the same troubles with AQo, here are some inspiring numbers:

Here are the offsuit hand stats:

AKo (47 times, 28% win, -0.66 BB/hand)
AQo (51 times, 22% win, -0.33 BB/hand)

I'm thinking it's partly sample size, since my results on P.stars 1/2 are

AKo (89 times, 49.44%, 0.58 BB/hand)
AQo (88 times, 30.68%, 0.17 BB/hand)

Granted, P.stars is generally tighter post-flop, meaning position + pre flop raise + ragged flop = small pot win.

Webster · #2 11-13-2004, 11:01 AM

Both hands look like you played them as I would - just bad luck with aggressive players - looks like Pokerroom players. I hate that place.

droolie · #3 11-13-2004, 11:55 AM

Your read of your opponents is key in knowing when to let these hands go. You also need to take into consideration any table image you might've been representing. If you've folded to turn raises a few hands in a row you're much more likely the target of a bluff.

Lacking any reads of maniac or habitual bluffer, when you've been the aggressor pre-flop and on the flop and someone leads into you on the turn, they're usually telling you they can beat TPTK.

Look at it from the other players perspective. To them you've been representing exactly what you have for two streets and they bet into you on the turn anyways. We play some really bad players and it's all the rage on these boards to assume retardation but I try to give them a little credit sometimes. Unless you've been caught bluffing a bunch of times they must have some kind of read that you like your hand. When they reraise your raise on the turn it's doubtful they're bluffing because it's unlikely you'll fold. They're screaming, "I have better than TPTK." The probability that they're bluffing is now much lower because it's you're more likely to them, given your aggresion that you'll cap or call rather than fold at that point. Unless you strongly suspect a bluff you're clearly beaten.

I don't hate the turn raise but didn't you think you were beaten when you were three bet? Why continue if you did? It's OK to fold rather than paying off 2BB to call down to the river, especially when the pot is small as it was in hand #2. When it's large like it was in hand #1, I think calling down is OK but I could see folding too. One of the keys to playing AKo correctly is knowing when you're beat. AKo is such a good hand that pre-flop we always assume it's going to be tough to beat, but as we know TPTK is very often not good enough.

Sometimes we look at the board and can't imagine anyone actually playing the hands that could possibly beat us, yet time and time again they show down 10 7s on hand #1 and A6s on hand #2. That's the hallmark of micros, people playing weird hands in raised pots. Don't ignore what your opponents are telling you with their betting patterns and take the pot size into consideration when calling down.

JrJordan · #4 11-13-2004, 01:10 PM

In the first hand I don't think there's any way you can fold. This pot is huge, which means you only have to win about 1 in 10 after the two BB bets you have to call to make this profitable. Folding here would be awful.

Hand 2, it's possible you could get away from it. Without the second paired hand on the river, I'd say you have an easy call. Even with the pair though, you're still getting 10:1. I probably call here as well barring any amazing read.