QQ UTG: How the hell do you play this?

[craze9]

When I pick up QQ utg I raise or limp with about equal frequency, though the texture of the game obviously affects my decision. But recently I've had an increasing feeling of uncertainty about the value of both of the plays, and how to successfully carry them out.

I think raising is the simpler option. But how much do you raise? Making it 6x the bb to go will fold most hands and also signal you out as a big pair/ AK, possibly tempting a player with AA to smooth call and trap (it would certainly tempt me). Then the flop comes down rags and you are out of position making a bet that will fold everything except for sets, overpairs, and maybe (if youre lucky) JJ and TT.

Making a medium raise (3-5x bb to go) seems like the better play to me. Still, most of the time you will bet the flop hoping for folds (with some exceptions like Jxx and Qxx). Also, what do you do when reraised? For me it's fold or try to hit a set (depending on the raise), but then there's the worry that I may be folding on rag flops to an aggressive AK (or worse) player.

Limping is more difficult. I think its obvious that QQ should only be limp reraised in very rare circumstances, and in an unraised pot it is an easy hand to get away from. But if limping avoids the problem of having to second-guess a reraise, it also puts you in the perhaps more difficult situation of assessing a preflop raiser who could have a wide range of hands, and of playing against him out of position. You are rarely sure of whether you trapped your opponent by disguising the strength of your hand or are in the process of trapping yourself. Here are two recent hands in which I limp-called with QQ utg.

First is Stars 2/4. I have about $700, Villain (button) about $500. I limp, folded to button who makes it 24 to go, bb calls, I call.

Flop: Jh 7h 2s. BB checks, I check, Button bets $24 in to $74 pot, bb folds. I dont really know what to make of this underbet and just call, planning to bet out on a rag turn.
Turn is Qh. I change plans and check, Villain bets $104, I raise $116, he moves all in with AhAx, I call and win. When he bet the turn I put him on JJ, which would explain his underbet on the flop, and thats why I put in a pretty small checkraise (I didnt want to fold KK or AA). Worked out well, but still a pretty confusing hand, and I wonder what would have happened if the turn had been the 3c.

Stars 5/10. I have 1700, Villain has 1k in middle position. I should note that I have no read or notes on the villain, and have never played w/ him before. I limp, Villain makes it $40 to go (a pretty small raise in my opinion) and its folded to me. Flop is Ts 2d 7s. I bet $80 into $95 pot, and he raises $120 to $200. Wtf do I do here? I considered folding, but I really was not convinced he had AA or KK, though this was based solely on his small preflop raise. I thought it was likely he was raising JJ, AsKs, or any flush draw (though he could have had TT). I called, reasoning that AK with a flush draw would call a reraise here and would actually be winning. Turn was 4h. Now what? I contemplated moving in right here and making him fold a draw, but I was confused and not confident in my queens, so I checked, and he bet $350, half of his remaining stack. At this point the only realistic hand I could beat was JJ or some random ten. I thought for a long time and came very close to folding when I finally pushed in and he took it down with KK.

The deciding factor to my push was his relatively weak preflop raise, which I thought ruled out KK, if not AA. I personally would never raise to 4xbb with KK in middle position with an utg limper (I'd almost always make it 6x), because I don't think its charging a high enough price and you could easily find yourself in a big multiway pot you have a very slim chance of winning. What do you think of his raise? Was it stupid of me to rule out KK? Overall I think I played the hand pretty poorly, but I feel like folding to his initial raise on the flop is just giving up too much, as a lot of players will raise here with quite a few hands. And reraising only gets you called if youre losing.

So... Any comments on these hands or on QQ utg in general? When you limp with QQ utg should you really just play for a set? Or should you take a stab at the pot with your overpair but give up pretty easily in the face of resistance? Or should you just not limp with QQ utg? Its the 3rd best hand in nl holdem, but it becomes so weak in the face of any aggression...

[Loci]

Raise. No questions, no theories, raise and stop being paranoid. Get the 7/4 off suits out, get called only by hands that deserve to play you, if no A/K comes on the flop, raise. If everyone folds, you win your next round of blinds. If they call, you're almost always a favorite. If they have KK or AA, you're screwed, it's gonna happen on occasion, get over it. It's better to have it happen on occassion there than to get your butt whopped by one of nine limpers who you let in for free.
On a side note, and don't take this the wrong way, but if you're playing that scared, you need to go back to limit.

[dmk]

If you truly think playing QQ in EP (especially UTG) is this easy, you simply don't understand the nuances of big-bet poker.

[craze9]

I agree w/ Dmk.

I disagree strongly with your comment that "if they have AA or KK, youre screwed." If you lose your stack every time you have QQ and are against an overpair you are in serious trouble as a no limit player.

Also, I don't think your fear of playing QQ in an unraised pot is justified. You will very rarely take a big loss w/ QQ in an unraised pot as its so easy to dump. It's much harder to play out of position against a late position raiser.

[bugstud]

one thing...why is a 4xBB raise weak? I raise the same amount with hands based on the number of limpers to me, not the strength of my hand. Other people may do otherwise, but reading a 4x raise after a limper with KK as weak seems pretty off to me.

[Loci]

This is how I make my living. I'm generally pretty pleased with my outcome. For the level it sounds like you're at, that seemed like the appropriate answer. While I have a respect for DMK and his opinion, having read and respected many of his posts, I was dumbing down my answer for you.

[The Ocho]

It's really not my business how you make your living and I'm not trying to criticize, but I've played in games where playing QQ the way you've described above will have you out on the streets pan-handling in no time.

For some games, your formula for playing QQ may be ok. Smaller online capped games come to mind. But play it that way everytime in a live game with deep stacks and you may just get smoked a little more often than you'd like.

Not trying to start a war here, but your advice is pretty bad for nearly all of the games I play in regularly. You may have a different experience. And that's fine. Just don't start calling people dumb when you're clearly not correct in all cases either.

[turnipmonster]

I agree 100%. good post ocho.

[Jason Strasser]

Ocho,

You are an overrated poster,

-Jason

[coltrane]

[ QUOTE ]
Ocho,

You are an overrated poster,

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]


did you mean underrated?