In the money: PP 20+2 Multi

[PinkyRingo]

Background info: I do not have much tourney experience. I'm a winning ring game player and am trying to expand my knowledge into the tournament scene. So, I often find myself unsure about certain decisions that I suspect are fundamental to tourney play. The following came up last night and I would greatly appreciate comments from all of you experienced tourney players.

1751 entrants and we're down to 110. Top 130 get paid. Avg stack size ~T15,000, chip leader ~T40,000. Blinds are T750/T1500.

I'm in the SB and after posting, I have T4430. I'm dealt AcJc. I have the BB covered. UTG+1 (~T12,000) limps, and it's folded around to me. What is my play?

TIA.

[Che]

Complete and push with any flop that lands anywhere in the vicinity of your hand (TP, flush draw, overcards + gutshot) unless the flop really hits you hard (two pair would be the minimum req. here) in which case you might check to induce a bluff/bet from a weaker hand.

You're basically running a stop-and-go, but your preflop commitment is small enough that you could get away if the flop is terrible for you (e.g. KQx, nothing in your suit).

Letting the BB in free isn't great, but the BB will rarely outflop you when he checks behind so I think it is a risk worth taking in exchange for the folding equity you will have on the flop (but do not have preflop against UTG+1).

If the BB pushes and UTG+1 folds (unlikely), it's an easy call since the BB doesn't need much of anything to push over two limpers. If BB pushes and UTG+1 reraises, you're dead if either one has AA or there is some terrible matchup like AK and JJ, but you'll be in good shape the vast majority of the time so it is still a call IMHO.

Later,
Che

[JasonK]

I'd push. You've only got 2 orbits before you're blinded out and you aren't likely to get a hand that's much better.

[schwza]

i'd push. the BB will probably have to call (if he has almost as much as hero then he might fold), and the original limper almost certainly call again, as it will only be 2.5 bb more to him, and a utg+1 limper should have something here.

but so be it. you're going to get into a 3-way confrontation where you are very likely to have the best of it.

if you just complete, BB will push if he's smart. he has a very small stack (would be helpful to know how small), so he really doesn't want to fold this hand, even if it sees a flop. and he doesn't want to let you and utg+1 see a flop, as he'll wind up playing against the stronger of the two of you, and the weaker won't have to put in the full amount of BB's short stack. now, if the action goes utg+1 limps, you complete, BB pushes his small stack, then utg+1 is guaranteed to call. if it goes utg+1 limps, you push, BB calls, then utg+1 might fold.

even if BB just checks, you'll probably miss and be forced to check/fold if you're only going to bet when you hit something. i think a better play would be to complete and then push regardless of what flops. but i think the best play is to push.

[Drac]

With the blinds being that big I'd push in that position. The BB is in a bad spot to call your all in with a limper to decide behind him. The limper will probably call but what hands are you looking to pick up at this point that will be better in a better situation than this? You just don't have much time to make your move and if they both fold here you've picked up a nice pot. I don't want to give the BB a free look at the flop to hit his crap hand and while I may be way behind the limper most of the time I'll be in a decent spot against him.

[Ross]

AJ is one of the most difficult hands to play in tournaments and generally I treat it very carefully but in this position I would move all-in.

You are not going to progress much further without doubling through and unless you have observed something to the contrary it is unlikely the limper has QQ AA or AK so there are only 2 hands he might limp with that you need to worry about AQ and JJ and in a $20 buy-in comp I would expect a raise with both of these hands. Although an all-in raise will not get rid of the limper if he has a small to meduim pair or KQ you are about 50:50 to double through. The other reason you move all-in is you cannot afford to give the BB a free flop.

The key dynamic here is stack size you have to move, and you are looking to play heads up against opponents who have not shown any strength.

Hope this is helpful.

Ross

[Che]

[ QUOTE ]
you're going to get into a 3-way confrontation where you are very likely to have the best of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

AJs is huge against the random hand we face in the BB, but I think that it will very rarely be superior to UTG+1's hand unless UTG+1 is really bad. Do you really think he's limping 1/8th of his stack with ATo or KQ? The answer to that question is the heart of the issue here.

I think he has a hand that beats AJs so we have two ways to win the pot:

1. Improve.

Pushing PF forces us to risk all our chips on the hopes that we will improve when we could cheaply see three cards before making that commitment.

2. Bet when the flop scares the opponent (even though he still has the best hand).

Our PF folding equity is basically zero since an EP limper should not fold to a short-stacked all-in headsup (or even three-way given how short the BB is).

All in all, the PF push risks our entire stack unnecessarily while forfeiting our folding equity.

I don't mind getting in all my chips PF when I need to, but I'm very happy to take a cheap flop occasionally when I get the chance.

Later,
Che

[slickterp]

i go all in. given stack size, and the likelyhood that the BB folds to an all in (if he's smart) it's a good play. being suited helps alot here as well. i feel that UTG+1 is simply trying to buy the pot here b/c no one wants to mess w/ a top stack. unless you really think you're gonna get a better hand than this sometime pretty soon, you have to push here IMO.

[PinkyRingo]

Thanks to all who replied. I pushed pre-flop. BB called all-in. UTG+1 called with AA. Flop was no paint with 2 clubs and I held my breath, but I didn't improve and was out 109th.

In retrospect I realized that I had not even paused to consider the limper's possible holdings. If I had, I may have been more likely to just complete in the SB. But given the nature of the flop, I suspect my chips would have been going to the center anyway.

What if the limper had instead open-raised to T4500? Does this become and easy fold for me? I don't have enough chips to make it through 2 more orbits, so I will need to pick a hand soon anyway, but would such a show of strength from EP warrant a fold in that case? I'm curious for more input.

As things went, I have no regrets about my play in this hand. Had I been lucky enough to make my flush, the size of the resulting pot would have given me at least 6 more orbits to get a premium hand and get back in the hunt. Also, had I been concerned with "surviving" a little longer to move up a few spots in the money, I suppose there may have been a way for me to get away from this. But "moving up" really didn't mean anything to me... I wanted to win.

Again, thanks to all who contributed. This was actually the first time I'd made the money in a big multi, so although I was disappointed, I see improvement and am happy about that.

Cheers,
Pinky

[Potowame]

that is very good, short stack line Che.