TP2K on a board with a multitude of draws

SlantNGo · #1 11-07-2004, 03:20 AM

3-tabling... no real read on anyone.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB checks.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7 players)
BB bets, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, Button calls.

Should I have raised here? With only Button to act behind me and already 5BB in this pot, I felt that raising would just bloat the pot, and I would wait to raise on the turn.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB bets, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, Hero raises, Button calls, BB 3-bets, MP1 folds, Hero folds, Button calls.

So, a bad card comes. The pot is quite big (8+ BB to me) so I think a fold is easily out of the question here. I decided to raise with the intention of folding to a 3-bet because there were so many straights possible on this board in addition to the flush (esp. with many limpers). However, this cost me 2 BB, and I'm wondering whether I should have just called down and seen the showdown for the same 2 BB.

River: (15.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Button calls.

Final Pot: 17.25 BB

Thoughts as to my action on both streets?

CWsports · #2 11-07-2004, 04:04 AM

Raise the flop. Why give the button 10.5:1 odds to call if he holds a gutshot draw? You also trap MP1 and MP2. Also, raise to get more information on the BB's hand. This way when the 3rd spade hits the turn you have a better idea what your up against.

Chris Daddy Cool · #3 11-07-2004, 04:47 AM

raising then folding the turn is bad for a number of reasons

1. why raising is bad
you already said to yourself that that was a bad turn card, why raise it then? calling down closing the action costs you the same amount and you get to see a showdown and you hate to get 3-bet which brings me to the other point...

2. folding is bad because you have the J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] for the flush redraw. it might not be good, but there are a variety of ways you can still win this pretty big pot. 2pair or trips may still be good as is your flush draw. folding a hand that has outs in a big pot is a substantial mistake

SlantNGo · #4 11-07-2004, 05:43 PM

I did notice my re-draw but I felt that the J was too low. Had it been a K, I would have called, a Q, possibly.

What about my flop play? I think my flop play is good here, with no way to protect my hand really, then on the turn I think I should be calling down.

[ QUOTE ]
2. folding is bad because you have the J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] for the flush redraw.

[/ QUOTE ]

shadow29 · #5 11-07-2004, 06:40 PM

Raise the flop.
Call the turn.
Raise the river, you have the 3rd nut flush (with the exception of the straight flushes).

Aaron W. · #6 11-07-2004, 07:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Should I have raised [the flop]?

[/ QUOTE ]

I like waiting for the turn to raise here. Raising here tries to collect a few extra small bets on a relatively small edge (your hand may not hold to the river), whereas waiting until the turn collects a couple extra big bets on a better edge (your hand holding up for one more card). This is almost textbook (SSH p. 160).

[ QUOTE ]
So, a bad card comes. The pot is quite big (8+ BB to me) so I think a fold is easily out of the question here. I decided to raise with the intention of folding to a 3-bet because there were so many straights possible on this board in addition to the flush (esp. with many limpers).

[/ QUOTE ]

Terrible idea. Even though you've only got a jack high redraw, it's still worth calling because the pot is so large. Calling down is a much better idea. You've only got a marginal hand now, no point in making it an expensive marginal hand.

The thought of raising and folding to a 3-bet is something you should reserve for being heads up. With the extra players contributing (hopefully) dead money, and that makes calling more and more correct (because you need to win less often to make profit). Of course, you're not going to like investing that money, because your edge drops incredibly when you're 3-bet (based on the fact that he's saying he's got a real hand -- but you can't be certain how much it drops, which is a terrible place to be).

Bropago · #7 11-07-2004, 08:31 PM

If you would have raised the flop it would have given you a better read on the other players and would have cost only 1 more small bet. When the turn comes then you can figure out if you want to fold for most likely only 1BB. You lose only 1.5BB (hypothetically) and you get your information.

Chris Daddy Cool · #8 11-07-2004, 08:41 PM

its not a matter of thinking whether or not your J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is good or not, it's also the fact that you may not even have to be drawing to a flush to win.

EdSchurr · #9 11-07-2004, 10:08 PM

I don't think you're going to get any valuable information from a raise. Almost any one of the other players is correct to call quite a few hands, and if the bettor isn't aggressive then he won't reraise TP or a good flush draw (in the games I'm playing, that's especially the case). Now you can't protect your hand on fourth.

Aaron W. · #10 11-07-2004, 10:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you would have raised the flop it would have given you a better read on the other players and would have cost only 1 more small bet. When the turn comes then you can figure out if you want to fold for most likely only 1BB. You lose only 1.5BB (hypothetically) and you get your information.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't follow this reasoning at all. Suppose that the raise is just called. What 'information' do you know? What if it's raised? You don't get much information from the orginal bettor, and you certainly don't get much information from the players in between who are just calling along. It could be someone pumping a flush draw or it could be a weaker top pair trying his best to protect his hand from the callers in the middle.

Here's what I mean:

If the raise is just called, then
1) If the flush card comes, and it's bet by BB, I'm just calling.
2) If the flush card comes, and it's not bet by anyone, I'm betting.
3) If it's not a scare card, I'm betting or raising if it's zero or one bet to me.

If I get 3-bet, then
1) If the flush card comes, and it's bet by BB, I'm just calling.
2) If the flush card comes, and it's not bet by anyone, I'm betting.
3) If it's not a scare card, I'm betting or raising if it's zero or one bet to me.

So there's no useable information to get from raising the flop.