Are Poker programs (PTracker etc) good for poker?

[Boozer]

If I go into a B&M casino with a computer, or I'm identified as a Card Counter, then I will be barred. The Law stipulates something to the effect that the Casinos (the banker) must be allowed to generate profits.

When a Poker player (PP) is playing poker - the player is technically his own 'banker'. Someone using a program, such as PTracker, against the PP could be accused of putting the PP at a disadvantage over his opponent, just like a Card Counter or someone using a computer could have an advantage over the casino. If you sat down in a B&M card room and whipped out your laptop and started entering data at the poker table - how long do you think you would last? Is there any difference between that, and doing it online? Even if you sat in a private game where laptops weren't illegal, I'm sure the other players would complain.

The online sites could be in the wrong for allowing people with programs to harness hand histories. I don't ever recall any of the the online sites that allow such practice, warning me when I signed up that my playing information could be harnessed by other players with a poker program. They don't allow progams that use BOTs to play, is there any difference?

Obviously, people that use programs will be in favour of using them, but it is something that needs to be thought through for the good of poker. I mean, poker is supposed to be a game of skill (i.e. brain vs brain), not played with the aid of a program.

OK - let the bombardment begin.

[BlueBear]

Automated software fall into three main categories:

Bots
Real time odds calculators
Hand history analysers

Online sites draw the line (or are unhappy) at bots, are somewhat unhappy about odds calculators but generally seem to be receptive to PTracker, as it's nothing more than a sophisticated note-taker.

[TakenItEasy]

I don't imagine that it is a matter of what is considered fair but what can be dealt with. In the matter of bots (I don't think anyone thinks that this is fair) but bot play, jsut as with team play sites can look for unusual play and ban you based on certain patterns or strategies of play. Very similar to when card counters suddenly bet more when the deck is ten rich. I think with calculators or trackers, it is simply impossible to tell when someone is using them therefore no regulation, therefore it is simply going to happen, fair or not.

[Scotch78]

Casinos are entitled to a profit because they are businesses incorporated specifically for that purpose. Fish aren't. Also, the casino's side of a game is fixed; they cannot adapt to a card counter, and that makes his skill an 'unfair' advantage. PT, 2+2, and every other tool we use is equally available to every fish. We are not legally or morally responsible for their choice not to use such tools.

Scott

[daveymck]

Did you see Fossilman at the WSOP taking out his notebook and writing a note as the Mike the Mouth threw abuse at him.

They might not allow a PC at the table but they cant stop you having a note book and if you were really anal you could easily keep count of times played raised etc for each player. You dont get to see the mucked hole cards thats the only difference to the online hand histories.

If somthing gives you an advantage as it is not information available for all then yes its "wrong" but the information is open to all, Ptracker and other programs are available to everyone so I dont see the problem.

All Ptracker allows you to do is take better decisions sometimes it doesnt actually change the cards that guy is holding or mean he cant beat you in a pot.

[BigNutSack]

I am not crazy about having my playing stats available to others. The easiest way for me to keep others from accessing my info would be if I could change my user name every couple of days. Unfortunately, PP only lets you change your name every six months. If players complain to PP, maybe they will change their policy. Fish probably don't care because if they were sophisticated enough to know about tracking programs, they probably wouldn't be fish in the first place

[Rudbaeck]

Casinos aren't allowed to bar card counters because these get an 'advantage' over the casino. Casinos are allowed to bar card counters because they are private property. (I think.)

I don't understand why they don't just change the rules of blackjack slightly so that even card counting can't give you a positive expectation. It's not like the suckers care, many (most?) suckers don't hit 16 against a dealer 10.

Even with harsher rules blackjack would have a smaller house edge than most casino games...

[daveymck]

I think even if you change your name poker tracker knows but I may be wrong on that.

[solucky]

Hi

My prefered second income was backgammon. You found any evening 1-2-3 fish that play 30 50 100$ matches. Than the onlineservers come up (5 years ago) and they support software like the pokerservers. Now u find 1 fish / month and any evening 3 worldclassplayers want play with u for 5$. As result ALL backgamnmonplayers come to poker like Magriel..Marmorstein..Phil Laak.........and really many more. But believe me the servers should stop to tolerate/support any software. A few fish will be sharks soon and soon u see not enough fish.

USE the bubble and catch as many $$ as u can
Wolfgang

[maynard]

"Also, the casino's side of a game is fixed; they cannot adapt to a card counter, and that makes his skill an 'unfair' advantage."

Yes, the casino can and does adapt to CC'ers - the rules of the game are far from 'fixed'. Witness the explosion of ripoff carnival games like 6:5, etc. posing as "blackjack". And even a 'fixed' game that starts out juicy can be quickly turned to crap by half-shoeing, restricting the player to flat-betting, and ultimately backing off / barring of the cc'er. The prime example of casinos adapting is Atlantic City: it's the one major gaming market where outright barring of cc'ers is illegal, but cc'ers don't exactly flock there to wage war against 59-deck shoes with lousy pen and constant countermeasures.

I just don't see a cc'ers skill as an 'unfair' advantage because - just like your example with pt, etc. being available to fish - it is based on something LEGALLY available to every last ploppy at the table: simple observation and use of his/her brain. Casinos can offer any game they want, and consumers will vote on what sticks with their gambling dollar. But playing a game in a legal fashion, strictly by the rules set forth BY THE CASINO, with information available to every other player at the table, and using no devices save for his own brain, is far from unfair.

That being said... I switched from BJ to poker partially for a new challenge, but in large part because the cat-and-mouse game got old, and the constant paranoia of heat (whether it was there or not), got really old. Even at the miniscule stakes I was playing. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

maynard