QQ in MP

gopnik · #1 11-02-2004, 11:23 AM

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, Hero raises, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, Hero raises, Button calls, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (10.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, Button calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (14.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, Button folds, UTG raises, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 18.25 BB
Main Pot: 18.25 BB, between UTG and Hero.

Although this play looks pretty straight forward, something bothers me here. Because I raised the pot before the flop players with all kinds of draws, even week ones, had the odds to see the turn card. (pre-flop: $6.25) And again, with like $12 in the pot on the turn, any player with any kind of weak gut draw had the odds to see the river card for one more bet. As we all now QQ is not a drawing hand and building the pot with this hand is not really a good idea because you give correct odds to draw to all sorts of drawing hands out there because pot is very big.
In SSH it says if you cannot really protect your hand on the flop, just call/check and bet the turn if a blank comes. And then there is an example with KK where it was incorrect to re-raise preflop for exactly the same reason.
I have a really hard time giving a free card to all the draws out there on this draw heavy board. Would any of you play this differently? Would any of you risk giving a free card to cut the odds for the draws?

Thanks!

CWsports · #2 11-02-2004, 11:28 AM

I play it the same but I 3-bet the river. The only hands you're behind to are KJ and J8. Since the river raiser is UTG KJ seems the only sensible one of those but no way am I giving him credit for that. If he had KJ I think he would have 3 bet the flop or raised the turn.

jrz1972 · #3 11-02-2004, 11:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
As we all now QQ is not a drawing hand and building the pot with this hand is not really a good idea because you give correct odds to draw to all sorts of drawing hands out there because pot is very big.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is absolutely terrible strategy. You would be better off never having read SSHE if you are going to go passive with top set.

You have a gargantuan pot equity edge. Exploit it! You are allowed to bet your hand for value!

LowDown22 · #4 11-02-2004, 12:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In SSH it says if you cannot really protect your hand on the flop, just call/check and bet the turn if a blank comes.

[/ QUOTE ]
You don't need to be that concerned with hand protection in this case. You have a big hand, and even with straight and flush draws out there, you have 7 outs to quads or a full house. You just need to figure out how to get the money in the pot.

TPL · #5 11-02-2004, 12:50 PM

WLLH says, in regard to flopping trips with a pair in the hole, if you don't lose alot of money with trips, you didn't play them right (assuming you lose with them, of course).

mephisto2000 · #6 11-02-2004, 12:59 PM

3-bet the River. If UTG had KJ or J8s (which he shouldn't have limped with) then he should have shown aggression on the flop when he made the nuts. The 4 on the river can't have helped him to beat your hand.

If his position wasn't UTG I would have said he limped with Q4s and made two pairs on the river.

Goon2 · #7 11-02-2004, 03:17 PM

You don't always raise to protect your hand. You also raise to exploit the fact you're WAAAY ahead in this hand --so jam money into it. Once you hit your set do not miss an opportunity to raise unless the board does something scary, which in this case it did not do.

foobar · #8 11-02-2004, 03:25 PM

Hey gopnik,

I agree w/ the other replies in this thread...you should be trying to get as much money as possible into the pot. That being said, I'm suprised nobody has advocated cold-calling the flop, hoping for overcalls, and then popping it on the turn. My standard line would be:

Preflop raise
Cold call UTG on the flop
Raise UTG's bet on any turn card
Bet/raise the river.

Cheers.

Jaran · #9 11-02-2004, 03:35 PM

Hey gopnik,
I think you need to call the flop intending to raise the turn here.

-Jaran