109off suit bad call on flop?

[curtis1120]

party poker 2/4 no reall reads yet

Hero is BB with 10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Preflop: 5 players call, no raising

Flop6SB, 6 players) 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero checks,UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks MP2 Bets, Button calls, hero calls , UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 Calls

Turn 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I check/folded to a bet here.

Should I have called the flop bet with middle pair weak kicker. It was 8 to 1 odds and I figured I had 5 outs.
Did I just throw money away?

Thanks
Chris

[slogger]

Given the uncoordinated nature of the flop (your outs are not helping any draws), I think you can justify the call getting 8-to-1. If getting only 7-to-1, I think it would be a little thin.

The turn is a close call, but the possibility of one of these clowns holding a 5 pushes this to a fold.

[beginner]

With 6 people on the flop, odds are that someone is holding an A and your hand is dominated. Continuing on the flop based on the 5 outs doesn't make much sense to me. Because even if you catch a 9, AT/A9/A5 all beat you. And if you don't catch anything, Ax has you beat.

The 5 on the turn voids 3 of your 5 outs and there's definitely no reason to continue.

I would not invest money on a 5 out draw that may not even be the best hand when I do catch it.

[TripleH68]

Good news:
-the board is nearly drawless, other than gutshot broadway straight.

Bad news:
-you might discount your outs a little by figuring you could hit and still lose this hand, especially since the pot is unraised.

[curtis1120]

its flunny you siad that, a set of 5's won!

[Fat Nicky]

Calling is not terrible, but there are a two things to keep in mind.

1. You're not closing the action.
2. You could make your hand and still lose.

Even so, if you don't expect a raise from the EP checkers, taking off another card isn't so bad.

[Flashy]

You should read SSH for playing hands like this. It will explain how you are miscounting your outs.

Your hand is a raise or fold. If you believe the bettor has the Ace, fold as you are way behind and only 2 outs are really clean. If you detect a bluff, not likily here, raise to drive out the other two hands.

Since it is a small pot, err one the side of folding. In a big pot, err on the side of rasing.

Again, SSH covers this in great detail.

[dingbet]

Your call on the flop was fine. You're getting 8-1, which is more than enough to call the flop, so folding is the wrong play. I wouldn't raise either, you can't really protect your hand well and you won't get a free card out of position. The uncoordinated nature of the board makes redraws less likely. You're implied odds are greater than your pot odds. The only thing I don't like it that you aren't closing the action. I would still call anyway, but would prefer to close action so it isn't raised behind.

[crockett]

[ QUOTE ]
If you believe the bettor has the Ace, fold as you are way behind and only 2 outs are really clean.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which two would that be? If you say the ten's because the bettor might have A9 then you could argue that he is equally likely to have AT (although some will say AT should have raised pre-flop) and this of course would make all the outs dead.

I think a better break down would be to recommend a fold because.

1) Your odds are thin. 8.2:1 for a fiver outer. Hero has 8:1.

2) Your kicker sucks. If MP1 is betting a Ten you are probably drawing dead.

3) Hero is not last to act and is not closing the action. Getting raised behind you sucks.

4) The pot is small.

Change any one or a combination of the above and then I might change my mind to a raise.

Also, I think as great as SSH is, this post (or posts like this) are a direct result. So many people just calculate the pot odds and fire off their decision right then and there. Even if they do think of the other variables I think a lot of them think "o.k. w/ pot odds it's close...so implied odds...call!"

But then again, this is not SSH's fault it is the fault of the reader.

[dingbet]

I liked a couple of the points you made, but i disagree with your decision to fold as a whole.

Your first point, that the Hero is not getting odds is incorrect in my opinion, when you consider the implied odds. I do agree with you, that too many players do not make use of implied odds correctly, but in this case I don't.

Your second point: I would prefer that the kicker to my ten be a nine, because it makes it less likey somebody has redraws to a higher two pair or broadway straight if my kicker were, say a king.

Third, i agree with you.

Fourth, the pot is large. 8 small bets, and more to be made with at least 2 players already committed to the pot.