Playing Big Draws Out of Position

[lennytheduck]

Game is 5-5 NL ring game. Very passive preflop with a lot of limpers and preflop reraises are almost unheard of.
Max buy-in to start is $200 but game has been running for quite some time now with new people filling any vacated seats, so stacks are now considerably deeper.

Hero in MP with 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ~$750 behind
Villain on button, ~$450 behind

UTG limps, UTG +1 limps, MP limps, Hero limps, Villain limps from button, both blinds check Pot = $35

FLOP:Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Checked to Hero, Hero bets $25, button calls $25, all fold

Pot ~$80

At this point I want to put in a normal bet in order to build the pot because in this game it is unlikely that all will fold, though my table image is certainly one of a rock at this point, so an outright win is not out of the question. It also warrants mentioning that the majority of the playes will call down the whole with top pair, Villain included.

TURN: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Hero bets $25, Villain raises to $50, Hero calls $25.

At this point I figure him for trips, simply because it is very unlikely this player will raise a full house in this spot. I figure theres a good chance my straight and flush are still live and of course im not going anywhere for a min raise. Should have I gone back over the top with one card to come?

Pot ~ $180

RIVER: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Hero checks, Villain bets $50, Hero calls.

Obviously it wasnt the best card I could have seen. I didn't lead out with a blocking bet because the villain was not the overly aggressive type and certainly wasn't going to fold any hand he raised me with on the turn under any circumstances. I'd seen him call down increasingly large bets with top pair, 3rd kicker in an earlier hand.

Any comments are appreciated. Results to come.

[ML4L]

Hey lenny,

[ QUOTE ]
RIVER: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Hero checks, Villain bets $50, Hero calls.

Obviously it wasnt the best card I could have seen. I didn't lead out with a blocking bet because the villain was not the overly aggressive type and certainly wasn't going to fold any hand he raised me with on the turn under any circumstances. I'd seen him call down increasingly large bets with top pair, 3rd kicker in an earlier hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get it...

That aside, I think either a bet or check-raise would have been fine on the flop. If you think it's going to cause your opponent to misread your hand and call when your draw hits, then bet out. I'd bet more on the turn. When he raises, if your read is that you're drawing live here (only you can decide that), then the call is correct.

But then you make your hand on the river and check-call when this guy has formerly called big money on the river with top pair? Pot it. Did you put him on a higher straight?

Hope it worked out.

ML4L

[SossMan]

<font color="red"> figure theres a good chance my straight and flush are still live and of course im not going anywhere for a min raise. </font>

<font color="red"> 6 </font>[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
<font color="red"> Obviously it wasnt the best card I could have seen. </font>

I can't imagine a better card. If you didn't like that card, what were you hoping for?

[ethan]

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="red"> figure theres a good chance my straight and flush are still live and of course im not going anywhere for a min raise. </font>

<font color="red"> 6 </font>[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
<font color="red"> Obviously it wasnt the best card I could have seen. </font>

I can't imagine a better card. If you didn't like that card, what were you hoping for?

[/ QUOTE ]

The 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Duh [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] (The J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] isn't any good since that just makes K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] a higher straight flush. It would give our hero the chance to make a Hellmuthian laydown, though.)

[limon]

feel free to pick it apart. i generally dont think about this stuff so writing it down quickly leaves alot of gaps. i hate seeing multi way flops out of position with suited connectors. TJs is the worst hand ill play out of position for a limp and even then i pray someone will raise behind me. then i love the hand cause 2 cards to broadway when they hit is the type of had that has a raiser dominated and trapped. i might be giving away too much but one of the best things about super system is that everyone only read that doyle brunson likes these hands but missed the part where he says he likes to play them for a raise in position. if i dont have or cant buy position i just dump these in a hurry. in your case i think you could have bought position, you should have raised pre-flop. if you know the button wont fold you should dump.

now on the flop if its 2 or less opponents i bet my draw from any position whether i was a caller or a raiser this gives me 2 chances to win, if i get called i decide what im up against. if i get raised i dump it unless its a hand ill go to the felt with then i jam hard. if i just get called. i usually put him on something weak, he sees theres a draw out there if he had a good hand hed protect it. i generally fire 2 barrels from any position in these cases. unless im in position and drawing to a not so obvious straight, then ill take a free card. if i hit on the turn out of position ill go for the check raise, i do this because i bet EVERY 3 handed flop then have to check alot of turns cause i get looked up alot. people have to know i love checkraising the turn so i get alot of free looks at the river. then on the river i have a ton of options after they check it through.

3 or more opponents seeing the flop i generally check it, from any position you cant bluff here. if i have a draw ill go to the felt with ill go for a check raise or bet in position. unless there is multi way action and im drawing to the nuts then i just blend in i want someone to catch under me. if it gets checked through ill bet out on the turn. i really hate check calling with draws i have to close the betting, i have to know for a fact that ill get paid off and i only draw to the nuts.
there are lots of other situations but i like to play draws fast because i like to play my other hands fast and it will get you more action when you need it. playing your hands fast keeps people off your back they just want to call you/check you down which gets you alot of cheap/free looks when you want them.

[mks]

You tried to steal the pot on the flop and it didn't work. Check-fold on the turn. You put $50 into an $130 pot on the turn, with a draw that has terrible reverse implied odds, if indeed you do have a draw at all (more than your 2 SF outs that is). If you think you can steal the pot on the turn bet $75. If you get called, hit a SF on the river.

[GimmeDaWatch]

The turn is a judgement call on your part. If you feel he's not full, fine, but I dont understand why you dont lead out for more on the river? If he puts in a big raise, you can re-evaluate your read, but from your description you can easily get alot more value out of your straight, no?

[muzungu]

ML4L-

Two things:

1. Practically, he can't really go for a c/r here since there is only one guy left to act.

2. More importantly, I think c/ring a big draw on the flop with these kind of stack sizes is a big mistake. On a draw-heavy board like this, if you make a c/r from EP and villain has a hand, he will often call and wait for a favorable turn to commit. If this happens you are in a tough spot: out of position with 20% of the effective stack size in the pot and only 1 card to come. If you hit on the turn the villain is probably going to throw away a TPTK/2 pair type hand. Or maybe he makes a bigger flush or str8 and busts you.

So: instead, when I have a huge draw on the flop, I play to either take off a cheap card, or get my whole stack in. So, I might check/call here, or lead out with the plan of pushing vs a raise. I'm not sure which I'd do here, but I hate c/ring this sort of hand from out of position.

-muz

[AZK]

more please.

[mks]

Am I the only one that doesn't consider this a "big draw" with 150xBB stacks?