Check-raise the river?

Alexthegreat · #1 10-28-2004, 05:08 PM

2/4 live......Seat 1 normally plays large stakes, and said earlier he is just here to goof around, so he has raised basically every hand preflop, but settles down around the turn.....he's a decent player......Seat 3 is solid, but has FPS......Seat 5 is a calling station......

I'm in Seat 10, and the BB with 10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Seat 1 just calls.....I wish I could say that he was screaming limp reraise.....Seat 3 raises, seat 5 calls, the button called too, I call, Seat 1 3-bets and it is capped by the time it gets to me, so I call and we're 5 way.....

First question.....after I call the first raise I never ever fold this hand to a cap right??

FLOP

J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I decide to throw a bet out there to see where I'm at.....Seat 1 raises, Seat 3 3-bets, Seat 5 calls, Button folds, I cap it and everyone calls......

Second question...should I cap it here? or let someone else?? I thought if I capped it may not appear that I'm on a flush draw....

TURN

2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Good turn.....I check, it goes bet, raise, call call, 3-bet, cap, call, call........so once again, 4 players to the river......

River

6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I decide to go for a check-raise...At this point I had seat 1 and 3 on AK for made straights, and I didn't think they would be checking.....Seat 1 bets, Seat 3 finally just calls, as does seat 5.....I check-raise.....

Anyone just go ahead and bet here?? I thought for sure seat 1 or 3 would bet, and it worked out...I don't know if it normally would though......thoughts??

SoaringAngle · #2 10-28-2004, 05:39 PM

I would not call the bet pre flop, and then after you did i would not call two bets. Even will a few callers, this is a very weak hand. I would probably just bet the river and 3-bet if it was raised. But really, i would not have been in this hand in the first place.

Alexthegreat · #3 10-28-2004, 06:04 PM

Folding this hand preflop for one bet would be amazingly weak.....I'm getting something like 8-1......You need to study up if you are folding this here in your BB

Alexthegreat · #4 10-29-2004, 07:12 PM

bump

Entity · #5 10-29-2004, 07:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Folding this hand preflop for one bet would be amazingly weak.....I'm getting something like 8-1......You need to study up if you are folding this here in your BB

[/ QUOTE ]
It would not be amazingly weak; I think calling is marginal. I called with 93s getting 13:1, and I still think it was marginal. 8:1 really isn't that great -- would you call with T2s on the button if everyone limped to you?

Nice line on flop, turn, and river.

Rob

tree_stump · #6 10-29-2004, 10:04 PM

I'd fold preflop with no questions asked, especially since you say seat 1 is a PF maniac, so you can assume anyone else's raise means a definite cap.

But, after the PF call I like the line. I definitely cap the flop, because, given the action, only AsKs or a paired board can beat you if you hit the flush.

I'd probably bet out on the river - trips or a straight is probably raising you anyway.

jordanx · #7 10-29-2004, 10:06 PM

You have nearly a 12% chance of flopping a flush draw here. It's not a great flush though, you risk being counterfeited every once in awhile. I think implied odds are pretty high at this table considering the action player and other people's response. I don't think it's a bad call pre-flop, although, I don't think I would've made it.

I think it's safe to assume someone will bet this river, good check raise.

GrekeHaus · #8 10-29-2004, 11:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It would not be amazingly weak; I think calling is marginal. I called with 93s getting 13:1, and I still think it was marginal. 8:1 really isn't that great -- would you call with T2s on the button if everyone limped to you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd prefer calling on the button with this hand to a bunch of limpers than calling in the BB. You have position, tons of players in to help value your flush draw and can easily fold anything that misses you. In the big blind, you're playing a terrible hand way out of position and anything less than two pair will probably lose with this hand.

Also, if you thought that UTG wanted to limp raise, then you're not actually getting the pot odds you expected, since you'll end up calling 2 or even 3 bets preflop.

But if you're going to call in the first place, then your pot odds will be exactly the same next time around, so you should still call.

StellarWind · #9 10-30-2004, 01:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Folding this hand preflop for one bet would be amazingly weak.....I'm getting something like 8-1

[/ QUOTE ]
The money in the pot is only a small part of what you will win by making your hand. 1 SB is only a small part of what you stand to lose by trying and failing. Pot odds are not relevant for preflop calls unless someone is all-in. They have no direct connection to whether the hand is profitable to play.

I don't see how you can make money by calling 5-handed. It doesn't help that table conditions for playing a draw are very bad. The backraise is hardly a surprise. Based on your description, UTG is going to charge you heavily for your draw and then not payoff very much when you hit it.

[ QUOTE ]
You need to study up if you are folding this here in your BB

[/ QUOTE ]
You should apologize for this remark. You asked for opinions and then insulted someone for trying to help you.

[ QUOTE ]
First question.....after I call the first raise I never ever fold this hand to a cap right??

[/ QUOTE ]
Incorrect. There is no such rule.

The second preflop call is worse than the first. Your cost to play is doubled. The pot size is doubled. Your potential postflop profits are virtually unchanged. That means your overall implied odds are much worse.

[ QUOTE ]
I decide to throw a bet out there to see where I'm at

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Strange thing to say. I know exactly where you are at. You are miles behind everyone but you have nine really good outs.

Betting the flop is fine. So is checking. Capping is fine too, but don't expect to fool anyone very much when you check the turn next.

I think the river checkraise is fine. Betting out-of-the-blue will wake everyone up. Maybe they should think about your previous play anyway when they see the flush card, but usually they won't. They are too involved with each other.

Don't cap the river if good player 3-bets. He's probably sobered up by now.

Alexthegreat · #10 10-30-2004, 06:06 AM

Stellar......

I'm not sure that I should apologize...I wasn't insulting him, I was merely suggesting he study up if he would lay this hand down for one bet in the BB 5 handed.....I am fairly surprised that the people who have responded think this is a marginal call here.....

I said UTG was that he was a maniac preflop, but slows down without a hand postflop .....I think most people are missing that point....other than the preflop aggression from one player, the table is still a regular old passive 2/4 game....

[ QUOTE ]
Strange thing to say. I know exactly where you are at. You are miles behind everyone but you have nine really good outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is hardly the case all the time.....The maniac has 2 cards......Seat 3 is probably ahead right now, although she could very well have a medium PP, and Seat 5 also has any 2 cards.....To say I am miles behind everyone is a vast overstatement....

I guess I should have said I bet to see where everyone else was at......I wanted to see if the maniac would raise my lead bet, and I also wanted to see if the PF capper liked her hand enough to 3 bet......

Finally, I am checking the turn automatically no matter what card comes....If I make and bet a flush on the turn, that will scare them...I'm would be check-raising it on the turn at the very least.....I don't think I'm giving away the flush draw one bit when I check here....If I was worried about that, I wouldn't have check-raised the river, and if I had given it away, the river would have been checked around.....