Tough spot against a tough player

rtucker5 · #1 10-28-2004, 11:23 AM

This hand happened a couple weeks ago and I am still thinking about it. I am sitting in a very good 20/40 game at the Borgata. The only tough player is directly on my left. A very loose player (VLP) that has run his $400 into $4000 limps in MP and I raise with JJ. The tough player (TP) 3 bets. It folds to the VLP and he calls 2 more bets.

Here is a little background on the TP. He hasn't 3 bet me yet preflop and has cold-called my raises in similar situations with JJ and AQ suited. I put him on AA, KK, QQ, or AK. Based on my read, what is the best move preflop and how will I proceed if the flop is non threatening?

PapaDeuce · #2 10-28-2004, 11:54 AM

i would at least call the raise, but i don't think capping is 100% incorrect. you really want to flop a set and proceed from there, but if the flop isn't particularly friendly then play accordingly.

Peter_rus · #3 10-28-2004, 01:21 PM

I would cap and lead flop. Dead money of loose player make your cap correct i guess. Giving your description you will be ahead 47.5% of time PF against TP. That's enough taking to mention your position (after loose player) and dead money of loose player in the pot.

Then i would lead the flop regardless what will be on it. If A or K happens and im get called by TP - i will check turn and fold to a raise. If no AK i would bet turn and check-call river if TP able to bluff his unimproved AK. If he bets or raises friendly flop - than it depends on his style if he able to push AK like top pair through streets i will call all bets if no than fold right here.

P.S. Tough player wouldn't 3-bet you here with such narrow range of hands until you're rock. So the one of you must be rock exactly. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

TStoneMBD · #4 10-28-2004, 01:27 PM

I like capping the pf and leading at any non AK flop. i think this is the best line to take to find out where you stand against the pfr and to get the best overlay on the lp.

Manzanita · #5 10-28-2004, 05:00 PM

rtucker5,

Given the range of hands that you put TP on your decision should usually be obvious.

Since there are 18 ways TP could have an overpair to your JJ compared to 16 ways he could have AK, you are a slight dog and should just call his preflop raise.

Because TP has position on you (and I'm going to assume that he plays well post-flop) then I would play the flop straight-forward.

If an overcard to your Jacks comes on the flop then I would check-fold.

If you flop a set then I would go for a check-raise; the choice of which street to do so depends on how VLP will react to a flop (versus a turn) raise as well as how tenacious TP is.

If you flop an overpair then I would check-call a flop bet from TP. I wouldn't get aggressive on the flop because I want VLP to stay in. If TP would bet the turn if he held AK then I would also check-call the turn (else bet it) assuming that it is a safe card for you.

-- Manzanita

DrGutshot · #6 10-28-2004, 05:11 PM

I'm not sure at all if this is the best line...but just consider it food for thought.

Assuming you cap PF, shouldn't you bet any flop, and then consider folding to a raise, because:

On a flop with an ace or a king, he could lay down queens, and on a flop with a queen, he may just have overcards, and if he is REALLY tight he might fold, and if he calls you'll at least know where you stand better.
Same goes for a flop w/undercards...

Thoughts?
-DrG

mks · #7 10-28-2004, 08:55 PM

Lemme get this straight, a tight player in a live 20-40 game who has refused to 3-bet with JJ and AQs in similar situations 3-bets you, and people are suggesting you cap and lead the flop. Suicide. An overpair is far more likely than AK here in my experience. Those who coldcall JJ often coldcall AK as well.

Call the 3-bet preflop. If you flop an overpair check-call the flop and check-fold turn, or bet flop and fold to a raise. Why go to war here? Based on your description of the player you are very likely to be beat.

When the flop has overcards or a J then the hand plays itself.

mplspoker · #8 10-28-2004, 09:06 PM

Besides MKS you received some HORRIBLE advice on this hand. Capping as he mentioned is suicide. AA or KK is VERY likely. What do you think he is going to limp with 99 and then reraise? Not possible. Worst Possible hand he could have would be AQs and that is basically a coin flip. The idea to keep the other dude in between on the flop by not raising is completely horrible. What so either of them can hit overcards?

If flop comes lower than J raise flop and call down if 3 bet. If comes A or K raise and fold to 3 bet or any later aggression. Just calling with AQs and JJ aren't that crazy 3 Betting AQ can get you in a lot of trouble....

PapaDeuce · #9 10-29-2004, 09:22 AM

i think you have the action incorrect. tp did not limp reraise and our hero is inbetween the limper and tp.

rtucker5 · #10 10-29-2004, 09:33 AM

In the hand I chose to cap because of the dead money of the VLP. I think it may be a poor play. And yes, the TP plays post flop very well.

I think capping is the wrong play because I never know where I am in the hand because he will let me continue to control the action until the turn or river. After thinking about this hand for a couple weeks I think the best line may be to just call the 3 bet and check raise favorable flops. What do you guys think?