totally flubbed hand

[LotharOfTheHillPeople]

15/30 live game in CA. UTG (goofy, but usually LAG) limps. One by one, everyone begins to limp. I'm in late mid with Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and decide to join the party for one bet. Cut off and button also limp along. However, the SB raises the family. He is a total goofball and could be doing it to build the pot or just plain piss people off. BB calls as does the entire field. (unfortunately, including myself) At this point, I do cautiously consider the fact that SB might have AA or KK. Preflop 18 small bets.

The flop 10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. The blinds check. UTG bets. 1st mid calls. I raise. Cut off calls. Button 3 bets. Blinds fold. UTG 4 bets. 1st mid folds. I call the cap. Cut off calls 2 more bets. Button calls the cap. 4 people to the turn, pot is now 35 small bets.

The turn Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. The flush has arrived, which I feared at least one of these players was drawing for. UTG checks. I check. Cut off checks. Button bets. UTG calls. I call at this point convinced that I am behind and fearing the cut off may raise. The cut off folds. The pot is now 20.5 big bets.

The river is 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. UTG checks. I check. Button bets. UTG calls. I...(results below in white)

Outcome:
<font color="white"> </font>I fold since I was convinced I was beat by at least one of them. I put the button on a flush and figured UTG flopped a set. Regardless, I was convinced at least one of them had a flush. The button had two red kings. UTG had two aces. I was kicking myself. Two questions in retrospect: Should I have just folded on the flop when it was 4 bets (call 2 cold) coming back to me? What is the rationale to call the river? How big does the pot have to be to disqualify my read? Please reply...be gentle. I'm learning.

[LotharOfTheHillPeople]

oops. Forgot to white out the results. Oh well.

[DFish]

if you call the turn you should probably be willing to call the river if unimproved and no fourth spade falls as they could easily be battling with overpairs, just close your eyes and hope.

[KowCiller]

I would have raised preflop to take control and build a pot. Suited broadways are nice in big multiway pots.

After the flop, I would probably fold when it's 2 cold back to me on the flop. You have a vulnerable hand that might be good now, but there's no way to protect it. Additionally, you have tainted outs (as you saw when the queen hit).

I think you have to call the river, since it's 1 bet in a huge pot and even though there are 2 people in, I think you're definitely good more than 1 in 22.5 times.

Since whiting out the results didn't work, I might be biased since I did read them.

KoW

[DFish]

yeah i agree with raising preflop you want to get the pot going with all the dead money in your hand is surely wanting equity here so you should try to take lead/build it up for your strong drawing hand.

[pudley4]

Where's your turn bet?

[Yobz]

You close the betting on the river and its 1 BB to you in a pot of 22.5, no one's tells are that accurate (unless you saw a card or something)...you have to call in that position, seems like your playing scared

[onegymrat]

This is an interesting hand. I like your play preflop. I don't see a raise preflop as the optimum play here. This looks like a very loose game.

You have three defining moments in your hand, and I must say that I feel you misplayed all three. Your raise on the flop is good, this may help you locate the flush draws as well as drive out any overcards and take out the button. When it is capped back to you, it seems like you are facing one of two things, nut-flush draw or overpair. One of your outs, Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], is not a pretty card. I see a fold here. If you called and played on, not only will you be on the defensive, but you'll probably have to call all the way with top pair.

Being that you called, when it was checked to you on the turn, you must find a bet. You DO have top two pair. A set would probably bet out from early position, fearing it being checked around. It is also a scary card for the non-flushers. I don't see the button on a flush-draw, being that he 3-bet the flop to drive out customers. You certainly wouldn't want some clown with a small spade to see a free card, right? A bet may also buy you a free river card, which I would use. And in worse case scenario where you're up against a made flush, you still have 4 outs, which you'll have a overlay.

By the river, it's too late and there's a gizillion chips in the pot. You are beat by a flush or a set, but what the hell, you didn't invest all that money to cop out on a 22 to 1 call? Call the river.

[Fianchetto]

You need to bet the turn.

A big spade is not going away, but there is a chance your hand is best, and you absolutely cannot give a free card to a crappy spade/gutshot/two pair draw that would have folded to a bet. You will feel sick if you let them river you for free.

In pots that get monstrous like this you don't worry about saving 1 bet because you don't want to get raised by the cutoff. You need to do all you can to win the pot, and if sometimes you lose an extra bet or two when you have the worst hand, it is okay and will be paid for by those times that you win the pot because betting saved you by knocking out somebody who would have rivered you.

Hypothetically, look at the same situation on the turn, and you bet, and the cutoff (A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]) raises you. Lets say for some reason J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] is still there, and he doesn't want to call 2 big bets cold, so he folds. River comes a spade, and your hand is good against an overpair.

The rationale for calling the river is that you have two pair in a huge pot, and there is no four flush or four straight on board. I wouldn't think of laying this down.

The main thing is that you don't have to have the best hand very often to make the river call correct, if your hand is good even 1 time in 20, then you would be making a catastrophic error by folding the river. I think you are good more than 1 in 20 times. Essentially you have to be more than 96% sure you are beat to make the fold right, I mean can you ever be that sure? Plus look at the consequences of a mistake in each of the two scenarios:

You Fold:
-You incorrectly fold the river: 22 bets lost (disaster).

You Call:
-You incorrectly call the river: 1 bet lost.

[JasonP530]

If you thought that he had a set enough to fold the river at 22-1, then why did you call 2 more(or any more for that matter) on the flop? Not meant to deride, but try to make your earlier reads coincide with your later play. There was nothing after the flop that may have made you think he had a scared set.

On the turn, you have to protect the pot with top two. The pot is huge, and even if there is only a small chance you are best, you have to od the best you can do try to stay ahead. If red KK folds to a turn raise, youll save the pot if the board pairs under you, or the example above with TJ with the J of spades.

Online you simply cant fold for one bet in big pots, unless the board is very scary.