Something that has always bothered me about the FTOP

[TRBNGR]

Ok first the definition provided by DS

"Every time you play a hand differently from the way you would have played it if you could see all your opponents' cards, they gain; and every time you play your hand the same way you would have played it if you could see all their cards, they lose. Conversely, every time opponents play their hands differently from the way they would have if they could see all your cards, you gain; and every time they play their hands the same way they would have played if they could see all your cards, you lose."

Now my question is what exactly is being gained and lost? It can't be money (ex. I have 44 and shove in HU play and my opponent reveals AA. The board comes out as 44xxx; where x is not an ace). Is the gain information? Something else entirely? Or is the gain strictly theoretical?

[Big Country]

I believe it is expected value.

If you could always see your opponents hand, you would always be able to make the play with the best expected value, because you know what the mathematically correct play is always due to having complete information.

So, anytime an opponent folds when the math says he should call, you win, just as anytime you fold when you should mathematically call, your opponent has gained value he would not have if you had known his hand.

[Dov]

It is money. Just not this time.

Look at the coin flip analogy that he gives in TOP.

Why not play craps or roulette? Because they aren't beatable games.

Why not? Because the casino has the mathematical advantage.

If you play one of those games you are making the same kind of FTOP mistake that you would be making by playing 44 against AA if you could see your opponents cards. That is, you shouldn't play the game if you know you are not a favorite to win.

It is true that you will get lucky every once in a while and win. But even when you do, you won't get paid enough to compensate for all of the times you will lose in that spot. The difference in money lost when you lose, and money won when you win is what David is talking about in the FTOP.

Hope this helps.

Dov

[Al Mirpuri]

It is money being lost but the loss or win on any hand is theoretical so when the pocket bullets got outdrawn on the flop they gained a theoretical win but if for example's sake the pocket bullets had gone allin heads up on the flop they would have made a theoretical as well as real loss. This theoretical money is known sarcastically as the Sklansky Dollar.

[TRBNGR]

Thanks for the replies everyone and I hope this wasn't percieved as a completely trivial question [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] Where Im still convinced the what is not money. I am now equally convinced that DS is speaking about EV (since I can't concieve and example that contradicts this [like I can with money and/or information])

[Al Mirpuri]

It is not expected value. I am pretty sure.

[lastchance]

It's $EV. EV is money, after a while.

[wdbaker]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the replies everyone and I hope this wasn't percieved as a completely trivial question [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] Where Im still convinced the what is not money. I am now equally convinced that DS is speaking about EV (since I can't concieve and example that contradicts this [like I can with money and/or information])

[/ QUOTE ]

+EV translates into +dollars in your pocket over time. If it is medium to large +ev play that is offered on a regular basis it will generate you a nice income if you don't make
-ev plays to offset them. example: AA will win approx 33% 10 handed(i think that's right), so if you continue to play it hard each time and slowing if you see something else developing(flush,str8), you will win 23% more often then the average which is 10%. over the long term that 23% more than pays off.

Hopefully I was accurate and helpful, if not then I'm sure someone will yell at me [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Another example would be any game that you knew you could win more often then someone else and you played a dollar a game, over time you would clean the person out but in the short term they might have a little luck and break even or even get ahead but over time, they are toast. That's +ev +dollars at work for you [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

One Street at a Time
wdbaker Denver, Co