Should I Have Gotten Away From This Hand

[lapoker17]

First, I don't know if like the way I played this hand at all - Forget not getting away from it on the end - And would appreciate any comments about the entire sequence.

10/20 at Commerce. I'm in the BB w/ $2800 in front. I'm dealt 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. 5 of us limp preflop. Flop comes 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. I lead out for $80. 2 players fold, LP makes it $220, button folds, I call.

LP is, in my opinion, one of the best 3 players I see on a regular basis - Plays for a living and is always very deep - In this situation he has about $7k in front (not that deep for him, but the biggest stack at the table on this night). I generally just stay away from him, but have taken huge pots from him with the nuts to his 2nd nuts.

Anyway, back to the hand...

Turn brings 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I check, het bets $480. I min raise to $960, he calls. Now I'm scared.

River brings 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I check and he, after trying to ask me a bunch of questions (without a response), says "I put you all in".

I call (my last $1600 or so) and he shows me pocket 6's, of course.

Just for background, a few weeks back I rivered the nuts and checked it to the same guy, who made a big bet w/ 2nd nuts, I moved in and took nearly all of his money after he called. My check on the river was, knowing that he would remember that situation, a ploy to get him to check behind with pocket 6's - Perhaps thinking I had limped with tens - The kind of preflop play he has seen me make in the past.

So, my primary question is: How bad was my call on the river? And, perhaps, how bad was my play overall?

[danuts]

If your playing in a game where the optimal strategy after flopping bottom set is to hesitantly check on the river so your opponent with middle set will be scared you flopped top set, your playing in the wrong game. With your kind of thinking, I'll take a nice portion of your stack 19 times out of 20 (more than making up for the one time you double through on me with your nuts).

[coltrane]

when villain raises the flop, what do you put him on?...does regularly raise with his draws?....if not, you can probably make a tough fold right there and then, because it's hard to imagine him having anything other than a higher set on that board.....but it's possible he could have something like a straight flush draw......

if you put him on a draw, you could reraise the flop - of course he might reraise again, in which case you're still not sure if he's on a big draw or a better made hand (particularly if he's the type to play his big draws aggressively on the flop)....if you're not sure whether he's on a better made hand or a draw, a good strategy would be to call his flop raise and then lead out on the turn on a safe card....if he raises you there, it might be time to let it go.....it is tough to get away from a set though....

[Popinjay]

I don't like your flop/turn play, but given the way the hand was played, it's almost impossible to get away from it with how the size of your stack on the river.

On the flop I would re-raise. If you call, I think you gotta bet out the turn.

[lapoker17]

Danuts - You are absolutely correct, just based on one experience with this one guy, I thought it might buy me a cheaper showdown, but your point is well taken and on the money.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
when villain raises the flop, what do you put him on?...does regularly raise with his draws?....if not, you can probably make a tough fold right there and then, because it's hard to imagine him having anything other than a higher set on that board

[/ QUOTE ]

assuming the villain will never raise a draw, he could have:

AT (12 hands)
KT 12
QT 12
JT 12
T9 12
JJ 6
TT 3
66 3

for 72 hands

it's debatable whether villain would limp in LP with deep stacks with hands like AT, KT, or T9 offsuit (but would definitely limp if they were suited), but i would not be surprised at all to see a limp from QTo or JTo. also unclear whether there'd be a PFR from JJ, or a flop raise from the rattier top pair hands. whereas 66 would have definitely limped, and TT probably would have as well (but might raise), and both hands would probably raise the flop with all the draws out. so that means the action makes, say, 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] more likely than T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], but not overwhelmingly so.

if he could also do this with a draw...

45 (16 hands)
A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]x [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (10)
K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]j [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], k [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3)

for 29 more hands

that's 101 possible raising hands (including draws), 6 of which you're in bad shape against. it's true you won't get much further value from a hand like JT against a decent opponent (unless a J or T hits), but come on - you can't fold on this flop. if you do, you'll be run over.

to the OP, there's no way you get away from this hand. it's like getting dealt KK vs AA with 20 big blind stacks. unless you're horrible, the money's going in.

[prop]

[ QUOTE ]
when villain raises the flop, what do you put him on?...does regularly raise with his draws?....if not, you can probably make a tough fold right there and then, because it's hard to imagine him having anything other than a higher set on that board.....but it's possible he could have something like a straight flush draw......


[/ QUOTE ]

possibly the worste advice ive ever seen in print. unless you know, for an absolute fact, this guy will never overplay a draw, you're going to lose your stack.

if you know, for a fact, he will never overplay a big draw you can make a move earlier in the hand and fold to his remove. i have done this before but it was against a player i'd known for 6 years.

[Ulysses]

I might do some things differently, but against most players I'm losing my stack here.

The biggest issue I have with the hand is checking on the river. Unless you have a read so good you can check-fold, you should be doing the betting instead of him.

[arkose]

you said he is a very good player, but how does he play draws heads-up? if he isn't the type to get into a raising war with a simple flush draw here (AXc, the most realistic draw), i would suggest perhaps reraising on the flop....to such an amount that if he calls or reraises, you are fairly sure he isn't on a draw......he knows you are a decent player as well, so if you reraise to $700, what hands would he continue with?

either that, or come out betting the turn big, and become very wary if he sticks around

but overall, its tough to get away from set over set...so don't be too disappointed......

[coltrane]

[ QUOTE ]
you can probably make a tough fold right there and then, because it's hard to imagine him having anything other than a higher set on that board.....

[/ QUOTE ]

okay, okay.....maybe this is a little overdramatic on my part, I wrote my post when I was on my way out the door....the point is though, stacks are deep and villain is a good player.....assuming he thinks you're a good player, when he raises - could it be AT?....possibly, but I think not....

IMHO, in position with TPTK in an unraised pot, villain would smooth call the flop and wait til the turn to make his move - maybe not though - again, a lot of that depends on what villain thinks of hero.....I think it's more likely that he's got a big hand or a big draw when he raises the flop.....now, there's nothing wrong with hero losing his stack with his hand, but that should happen on the flop then - hero should reraise....if hero thinks stacks are too deep and knows his opponent well enough to lay down bottom set, then I think the protocol would be to call the raise on the flop, lead out the turn and fold to a raise....

we're not talking about Party Poker here.....I don't think one has to decide in advance that in every single situation they're going to absolutely play to the felt every time they flop a set.........