Poker Lessons/Coaching

[ML4L]

Hey all,

Until recently, I hadn't seen the topic of poker lessons broached on the forum. But, in the past few days, I've seen the subject discussed in a number of spots, and it got me to thinking about the prospect of both giving and/or taking NL/PL hold 'em lessons. So, I was hoping that my fellow 2+2er's could share some opinions and experiences with me. Feel free to reply to the thread and/or PM me with anything that you feel to be relevant.

Note that this is NOT an attempt for me to solicit business for myself nor for me to try to find my own coach. I hope that this thread ends up providing a wealth of information to all of those who might be considering an investment in lessons.

So, here are the questions that I have. Please take a second to reply even if you have no interest in NL/PL hold 'em lessons so I can gauge demand more accurately. Thanks for your thoughts.

Mike

EDIT: I was going to cross-post this in small-stakes, but the poll makes it kinda tough. So, scratch that idea...

IMPORTANT EDIT: THe poll got screwy. Question #1 is really listed third somehow, and Question #3 is really listed first. Dangit! I hope everyone figures out what I was trying to do...

[theBruiser500]

I guess I better reply since I started a big thread on it a little while ago. My poker lessons which I pay for with Ciaffone have been okay. I consider the responses on 2+2 to posts I have made to be coaching, and the same for help I get on IRC. All the responses I've gotten here and on IRC have been absolutely invaluable and I have much gratitude for everyone that has helped me. All the help I've received has made me money and I'm sure that more help will make me even more money (increase my hourly rate significantly which will add up to a lot of money in the long run). As such, I'm willing to pay pretty much any amount of money to someone willing to mentor me.

[cornell2005]

I havnt taken lessons or given lessons, but i think paying a flat fee for instruction would not be efficient for both parties. it would be far better to offer some sort of percetnage profits scheme, or even better, a rakeback scheme. that way the teacher has a vested interest in the student's improvement, and the student has less risk to bear in the form of fixed payments. i am currently thinking about exchanging teaching for rakeback for current small stakes players, though im not sure yet.

[schwza]

i've seen irc mentioned a few times here - what is it? can anyone join?

[Justin A]

I've thought a lot about taking lessons in the future when I really want to expand my game. At this point it is not worth it to me because I don't yet play high enough stakes to put deep stack NL theory to use. I wouldn't want to have lessons now that I wouldn't be able to put to use until the future because a lot would be forgotten.

If and when I graduate to higher stakes, I think some sort of teacher/mentor would be great, especially for short-handed play. Matt Flynn made a post a while back about playing in the UB 25/50 game and letting someone who staked him be able to watch him play while he explains why he's making certain decisions. This seems like the best way to learn IMO, it's almost like getting the experience yourself, and more importantly gaining insight into the types of things you should be thinking about for every decision.

Bruiser, what is the format of your lessons with Ciaffone? Is it over the phone? I think it would be hard to get good lessons over the phone, but I could be wrong. If I was going to pay good money for lessons, I'd probably want them to be in person, and be able to sweat the teacher while they're actually playing.

As far as how much I would pay, I would be willing to fork over a very good amount of money if I thought that lessons would teach me in a very short time what it would take me months or years to learn myself. I don't know where this post is going, just airing my thoughts on the issue I guess.

Justin A

Oh, and just curious, do any of the "expert" posters on this forum live in or near San Diego?

[theBruiser500]

Via email, and supposedly phone if you want.

[Matt Flynn]

coaching while playing for a backer has worked out very well. all parties seem satisfied. interesting that two of them have been through Ciaffone. not sure whether they "finished" with him but there has been a lot left to cover. i hate the thought of bruiser not getting a sufficient education. ;-)

matt

[snowbank]

I read something from Ciaffone, I think it was from cardplayer. It talked about how he played 1/2 and 2/4 online, and only 1 or 2 tables. I have heard he is one of the well-known coaches, and just thought it was odd that he coaches a lot of players but probably doesn't make very much playing 1-2 tables of 1/2 and 2/4 limit online. Seems like he would be playing a lot higher stakes. Anyone know why he plays so low?

[ML4L]

Hey BK,

In theory, I think that the percentage of profits approach is best, but in practice, I think a flat rate is probably better. First, it is a HUGE pain to take the necessary measures that will ensure that neither side rips off the other one. Second, if it's something along the lines of what Diablo proposed to Bruiser where the payment is a cut of the increase in win rate, the variance between a player's true win rate and estimated win rate could make it so one side or the other gets screwed. And lastly, just because you tell someone to stop raising A2o UTG doesn't mean that they're gonna do it. It shouldn't be the teacher's fault if the student is stubborn and/or incompetent.

That having been said, your rakeback idea eliminates some of those problems. But, I still think an hourly rate is the way to go. Good luck.

ML4L

[ML4L]

Hey all,

Thanks to everyone who has voted or replied to this point. I'm kinda disappointed/surprised that nobody has shared details about any experiences that they've had with poker coaching. I don't know if it's because Bruiser is the only 2+2er to have done it, if it's because people are embarrassed to admit that they've had lessons, or something else?

Anyway, if you have anything to add, PLEASE reply to the thread or just drop me a PM. And, I apologize in advance for the number of times that I'm going to bump this thread...

Thanks again.

Mike