I love it when a plan comes together

[I Play 2 Ski]

Its the little things in life that add to the hourly rate. Nothing spectacular.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. UTG posts a blind of $5.
UTG (poster) checks, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP3 calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 folds.

Final Pot: 5.50 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 4.50 BB, won by Hero.</font>
<font color="green">Pot 2: 1 BB, returned to Hero.</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
No showdown. Hero wins 5.50 BB. </font>

I am thinking if I am going to play this draw, I need to raise to protect my hand. I bet on the turn for both value and deception.

What do you think of the play?

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
I am thinking if I am going to play this draw, I need to raise to protect my hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh!? When you have a draw then you don't yet have a hand. Why raise and force everyone else out of the pot when you will likely have to hit your flush to win?



[ QUOTE ]
I bet on the turn for both value and deception.

[/ QUOTE ].

There is no value to this bet, since you are a 3:1 dog to nearly any pair and you are still an underdog to overcards. However, your thinking and play are so screwy that I can't argue about the deception part. I hate to sound harsh, but I think you need to seriously consider moving down in limits before you lose all of your money.

[Monty Cantsin]

No larger flush draws are folding this flop, so the "protection" value of your raise is basically zero.

In this particular instance your raise turned out to have great "deception" value and you bought the pot. But I think the likelihood of this happening is usually close to zero.

More commonly you will end up reducing the field to you and one or two other players. Since you are out of position you can't hope to get a free turn. Also, if you check/call the turn even the dimmest opponent will figure you for a flush draw. So you've increased the cost of your draw and reduced the implied odds for when you hit.

I think this is a good spot for calling the flop bet looking for overcalls.

Note that if you had a pair to go with your flush draw the raise starts to make more sense because you have a)an actual hand to "protect" and b)more equity in all the money going into the pot.

/mc

[SoaringAngle]

why would you raise to "protect your hand". If you raise you make everyone except the bettor call two cold leaving you possibly heads up. If you call the pot will have more call behind you and thus be larger, giving you more pot equity IMO. There is no need to raise this flop to "protect your hand"

[Monty Cantsin]

[ QUOTE ]
If you call the pot will have more call behind you and thus be larger, giving you more pot equity...

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to clarify, the additional callers behind you don't increase your pot equity, they just increase the pot. In fact, they reduce your equity, but they increase the size of the pot by a factor which is much larger than the amount by which they diminish your equity, which is what makes a call preferable to a raise.

/mc

[Bob T.]

I am thinking if I am going to play this draw, I need to raise to protect my hand. I bet on the turn for both value and deception.


Protect what? Your six high, bad kicker.

Your checkraise was a semibluff, and you continued it on the turn, when you were headsup and you also picked up some extra outs.

[I Play 2 Ski]

I checked the flop to see what would develop, the one bet from MP3 could mean anything. The showed no strength preflop and may as well been betting to see where he was at. Everybody folded behind him.

Ok so now I am not going to fold my 4 flush for 1 bet. If I call here, I possibly let other draws in. What I am concered about is hitting the flush on the turn and allowing somebody a redraw to a higher flush.

I felt If I raised here, I can get it heads up and if someone calls 2 at least I know where I stand.

The turn gives me more outs. If I check, I give away my hand and probably give a free card away to his draw. Secondly I am the only one who has showed any strength and now its heads up. I think there is a decent chance if I bet I could win it right there. If he calls or raises then I know hes ahead, but I still have 9 outs to a flush that will be good and 3 outs to my gutshot. So I bet, he folded I win.

The reason I posted this hand is because it is one of those marginal hands. Obvioulsy I my check raise gets called or reraised I slow down, but based on the preflop action I didn't see anyone having a hand that they were confident with. MP3 could have a better hand, but there is no way he had a big hand. My guess is JT.

As for the posts about me going to lose all my money playing this way, that is kind of presumptous. I know how to play ABC poker and admittedly play a little weak tight, hence for posting the hands that I decide to be aggressive with. I am a winning player at 5/10 to the tune of 2.58 BB/100 over 18k hands, so I must be doing something right.

I do appreciate all the responses, both positve and negative as they do help my game. This hand was just one of those hands where I sensed weakness and pounced on it.

Please continue to give me feedback.

Thx

[me454555]

This is one of those situations where you probably need to hit your draw to win. There's no sense in protecting your hand and "cleaning up outs" b/c all your outs are most likely clean anyway.

Bet out the flop and hope to 3 bet.

If you had an Axs, it might be another story b/c there would be a very good reason to get this heads up.

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
Protect what? Your six high, bad kicker.

[/ QUOTE ]
POTD.

[SoaringAngle]

[ QUOTE ]
Just to clarify, the additional callers behind you don't increase your pot equity, they just increase the pot. In fact, they reduce your equity, but they increase the size of the pot by a factor which is much larger than the amount by which they diminish your equity, which is what makes a call preferable to a raise.


[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I'm a little confused i must admit about PE. I have read and re-read SSHE many times and am familiar with all of it and try my best to implement it. However, the one thing i have had questions about is Pot Equity.

1. How do more opponents drive your PE down, becase say there are now 5 opponents in the hand instead of 2. With five you have a draw that will come in 35% of the time and should be top say 30%(Guess?) of the time. However, you are only contributing 20% of the money, so you have a pot equity edge. Am i correct? Then because you do not raise more people will be in the pot contributing more money to make the pot bigger.
2. Then, say you raise on the flop as the hero did you will probably be heads up with a draw that comes in and gives you a winner 35% of the time while contributing 50% of the money in the pot. No question a call is better in this situation but I;m just having problems with PE.

Maybe i should have just started a new topic, but i really would like some responses to clarify my confusion about Pot Equity.