Weak or smart?

[John White]

UTG: 32 hands VP$IP 50%
UTG+2: 87 hands VP$IP 60%

I really really hate folding the flop here, as betting into me might just be a play. However, the flop is coordinated. What do you think? My typical strategy with overs and a rag flop is to stay aggressive, representing overpairs. That's worked pretty well for me, but I didn't raise preflop with KJo, so I can't represent the overpair. That was my thinking at the time, anyway.

PokerRoom 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls, <font color="666666">3 folds</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, Hero folds, MP2 calls, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: (5 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP2 folds, SB folds.

River: (7 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+2 calls.

Final Pot: 9 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 9 BB, between UTG and UTG+2.</font>

[Sent]

Smart

-Sent

[srt19170]

For 6 SB on the flop I think you're right to fold. Without the Ace you're probably going to lose a high-card showdown, so you've only got 6 outs and you'll probably still end up second-best hand. It's a good fold.

-- Scott

[bonanz]

weak

call the flop, you're getting 8:1 that are pretty clean. i'd peel one off.

blank on turn = fold

[John White]

[ QUOTE ]
call the flop, you're getting 8:1 that are pretty clean. i'd peel one off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting. Does that mean that you don't subscribe to the "single draw odds" school? I'm looking for the same 14:1 pot odds I'd need on the turn for a single draw, then I re-evaluate. Are you using two card draw odds?

[bonanz]

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting. Does that mean that you don't subscribe to the "single draw odds" school? I'm looking for the same 14:1 pot odds I'd need on the turn for a single draw, then I re-evaluate. Are you using two card draw odds?

[/ QUOTE ]

huh? pardon me for being dense but i don't understand this statement. what I meant is when the action is back to you you are getting 8:1 to call right there. The odds of hitting one of your overcards on the turn is about 6.8:1 (3 kings and 3 jacks for 6 outs). It's close, but theres no flush draw except backdoor, your overcards don't create anymore straigh possibilities, so they are realatively clean except for domination concerns (ie KQ and a K hits). so i would call to see the turn. especially with those vpips you quoted for opponents. if a blank hits i'd reevaluate again, but at that point you most likely won't be getting correct odds if someone bets again on the turn, and this specific turn is very ugly and it is very easy to fold.

i hope that made my opinion a little more clear.

[helpmeout]

I'd raise this preflop to cut down the field.

On the flop yeah I think folding is best, if your opponents have VPIP of 50%+ then there is a good chance they will have hands like K6o J3s A4o all these hands give you big trouble. Against real passive opponents 74s wouldnt surprise me.

The pot is small get out cheap.

[bonanz]

[ QUOTE ]
there is a good chance they will have hands like K6o J3s A4o all these hands give you big trouble

[/ QUOTE ]

don't forget set, or 2-pair. they could already have a straight flush, or possibly quads.

[ QUOTE ]
I'd raise this preflop to cut down the field.

[/ QUOTE ]

i just threw up on my shirt

[John White]

[ QUOTE ]
huh? pardon me for being dense but i don't understand this statement. what I meant is when the action is back to you you are getting 8:1 to call right there. The odds of hitting one of your overcards on the turn is about 6.8:1 (3 kings and 3 jacks for 6 outs).

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I see what you're saying. SSHE's method of out counting says that you should give yourself 1.5 outs for each over you have. You don't use that?

I count two overs as 3 outs, meaning I need over 14:1 pot odds to call.

[John White]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd raise this preflop to cut down the field.

[/ QUOTE ]

SSHE doesn't advocate that as part of basic play. Can you tell me why you would in this situation? Or is this part of your basic play?