Help me with my Ax SOOTED LEAK...

[digdeep]

In a recent review of my PT stats, I have identified that I am losing money on my Axs hands, particularly those A6s and lower.

I would appreciate people's insights into how they play these hands. The primary cause (I think) of this leak is loose preflop play.


Pre-Flop-

Is there a minimum requirement for number of people in the hand to call with Axs?

Do you ever coldcall with Axs?

If you call and are raised, do you call the raise?

Post-Flop

With two of the same suit on the flop (four to your flush) I normally bet for value. Do you raise a reraise, go as far as to cap the flop if you can?

Turn - different suit - I check.

River - I either check call if no flush, or bet and raise with the made flush?

If only one of your suit comes down on the flop - how do you play it?

The plays will obviously be different with other hand possibilities, TPWK, or two pair, etc..


Any insights at all would be helpful, whether directly relevant to these questions or not.

Thanks.

[cab4656]

For what it's worth, my Axs's are all in the green with the sole exception that is A6s, which is certainly an anomaly.

Is there a minimum requirement for number of people in the hand to call with Axs?

No. I will limp with A2s UTG regularly.

Do you ever coldcall with Axs?

Yes, usually in late position if an EP player has raised and there are several cold-calls (I'd probably want at least 3 before the action gets to me).

If you call and are raised, do you call the raise?

Definitely. You pot odds are likely very favorable. If it's heads up and your pot odds aren't great, call anyway, because you don't want to let people run over you.

With two of the same suit on the flop (four to your flush) I normally bet for value. Do you raise a reraise, go as far as to cap the flop if you can?

It depends. If there's three or more opponents in with you and they're not folding, raise all you can. This is because you are 2:1 to make your flush by the river, so you are "winning" a percentage of every bet that goes in on the flop.

Turn - different suit - I check

If it's heads up and you think he might fold if you bet, then bet. Otherwise, checking and calling is good (however, if there are more than four players still in who won't fold, you can bet for value. This is fairly uncommon though).

River - I either check call if no flush, or bet and raise with the made flush?

Why call if you miss the flush? Maybe if you made a pair of aces also, but if you miss, you're likely folding. Of course bet and raise with the made flush almost all of the time.

If only one of your suit comes down on the flop - how do you play it?

Usually fold. If you made a pair also, you could make a loose flop call if the pot is fairly big and you're close to closing the action.

[ggano]

Is there a minimum requirement for number of people in the hand to call with Axs?

I hope to see at least 3-4 opponents see the flop. Adjust accordingly.

Do you ever coldcall with Axs?

Rarely. I'd like to see a TON of other people already in.

If you call and are raised, do you call the raise?

Yup.

With two of the same suit on the flop (four to your flush) I normally bet for value. Do you raise a reraise, go as far as to cap the flop if you can?

If you'll get at least 2 callers, go for it. If you've got 2 callers it's EV-neutral, but helps disguise your hand when you hit.

Turn & River Fine.

If only one of your suit comes down on the flop - how do you play it?

Play it like any other draw, it adds 1.5 outs to your hand.

A more interesting question is when an ace hits, how do you play it? It depends on a lot of things ofcourse. Generally I assume I have the best hand until someone shows resistance, then I get very cautious...

[Reqtech]

Axs is one of my favorite hands. It's the hand, along with hitting a set, where I tend to win the biggest pots and they're easy for me to fold if I miss the flop. I don't have poker tracker yet (plan on getting it tonight) so I don't have hard stats, but I never get a dark feeling when I'm dealt Axs. It's been a great hand in my (short) experience.

Pre-Flop-

Is there a minimum requirement for number of people in the hand to call with Axs?
I would like to have at least 4 see the flop when I have Axs


Do you ever coldcall with Axs?

Only if I'm in late position with a couple callers ahead of me.


If you call and are raised, do you call the raise?
Absolutely. If I'm up against someone with a good hand and I hit my flush, they'll be paying me for the priviledge of seeing my flush. Especially in the micro-limits where people don't let go of likely beat hands.

Post-Flop

With two of the same suit on the flop (four to your flush) I normally bet for value. Do you raise a reraise, go as far as to cap the flop if you can?

As long as there are 4 (which there should be) yes. In addition to betting for value, you are also disguising your hand.


Turn dfferent suit - I check.
I'll bet but probably won't 3-bet or cap if raised.

River - I either check call if no flush, or bet and raise with the made flush?

If I miss the flush and have no pairs, I'll fold it.

If only one of your suit comes down on the flop - how do you play it?

Fold unless I caught a pair. Then I'll call (this may be a leak, though)

[Zetack]

I like to see three limpers in but I'll go with two sometimes, depending on table conditions and my position.

To the respondent that said you can come in utg...I don't like it, I don't like it at all. Plenty of folks on this forum will tell you its alright but I'd only do it in a very loose, very passive game. It's a worse play than limping with a smaller pair utg.

You're somewhere in the neighborhood of 15-1 to make a flush by the river with your two suited cards. Since some of your non made flush draws will cost you more after the flop than just your one PF bet you need to make, I dunno, 20, maybe a few more, small bets on your made flushes. If you have to pay more than one bet to get in very often this number goes up. Once you factor in the times nut flushes lose to boats the number may go up some more. If you limp in UTG and it gets raised to your left and folds everybody else out, you have a bad situation. If you come in and only get one other limper and the BB you don't have a great situation either.


--Zetack

Course sometimes you will make a straight, two pair or some other powerful hand which may knock the number of small bets you need to win down some...but it can't be by that much.

[digdeep]

Thanks for everyone's responses. I always call Axs UTG, but this may a source of my losses. Furthermore, most people are reiterating strategies that I already employ when playing Axs, and therefore I may have more of a leak post-flop when I miss my flush but catch an A or accompanying card for a pair.

If you don't play Axs UTG, what is the earliest position from which you can play it?

[cab4656]

[ QUOTE ]
To the respondent that said you can come in utg...I don't like it, I don't like it at all. Plenty of folks on this forum will tell you its alright but I'd only do it in a very loose, very passive game. It's a worse play than limping with a smaller pair utg.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. A small pair will flop a set 11.8% of the time, while a suited ace will flop a four flush 10.9% of the time (source). In both situations, if you miss your set or four flush, you can usually fold on the flop.

But your Axs hands can also make other winning hands, such as top pair. And a flush is more likely to hold up at showdown than a set is. Also, I'm sure you know this, but we're in the micro-limits forum where loose and passive games are the norm. I don't believe there's anything wrong with limping with Axs UTG.

[John White]

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't play Axs UTG, what is the earliest position from which you can play it?

[/ QUOTE ]

For early position, SSHE says ATs in tight games and A2s for loose games.

Post your problem hands.

[Knoler]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
To the respondent that said you can come in utg...I don't like it, I don't like it at all. Plenty of folks on this forum will tell you its alright but I'd only do it in a very loose, very passive game. It's a worse play than limping with a smaller pair utg.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. A small pair will flop a set 11.8% of the time, while a suited ace will flop a four flush 10.9% of the time (source). In both situations, if you miss your set or four flush, you can usually fold on the flop.

But your Axs hands can also make other winning hands, such as top pair. And a flush is more likely to hold up at showdown than a set is. Also, I'm sure you know this, but we're in the micro-limits forum where loose and passive games are the norm. I don't believe there's anything wrong with limping with Axs UTG.

[/ QUOTE ]

In loose/passive games, I agree with you, and I'll roll the dice and limp UTG.

But, if you're not seeing 4 to most of the flops, and you're seeing a fair bit of PF raising then I don't like to play AXs unless I've got a caller or two in front of me. I'll call from MP1 though, if UTG and UTG+1 both limp.

I'll occasionally cold call with AXs in late position if several other people have already cold called the raise. I'm talking me in the CO or on the Button with a buttload of people in the pot. (Maybe the raiser, two cold callers, and a limper or two yet to call?)

-Brian