But they were sooted!

JinX11 · #1 10-14-2004, 03:05 PM

Any thoughts here?....reads included. Not for sure what I was thinking - probably was in a state of shock watching the Red Sox-Yankees game (still am in that state). Can anyone confirm this is strangely (and maybe horribly) played by me?? I suppose I was thinking this was an overcall situation: one where you are likely ahead of most, but maybe behind someone (thought a set or two pair might be out against me).

On the other hand, Party $3/$6 has seemed insanely stupid lately. Anyone else seeing this???

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Hero raises, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 (TP-P) calls, CO (No read) calls, Button (SLA-A) calls, SB (Uber-LAG) 3-bets, BB folds, Hero caps, MP3 (TP-P) calls, CO (No read) calls, Button (SLA-A) calls, SB (Uber-LAG) calls.

Flop: (21 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
Uber-LAG bets, Hero calls, TP-P calls, No read calls, SLA-A calls.

Turn: (13 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
Uber-LAG bets, Hero calls, TP-P calls, No read calls, SLA-A calls.

River: (18 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
Uber-LAG bets, Hero raises, TP-P calls $6 (All-In), No read folds, SLA-A 3-bets, Uber-LAG calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 28 BB
Main Pot: 22 BB, between Hero, TP-P, SLA-A and Uber-LAG.
Pot 2: 6 BB, between Hero, SLA-A and Uber-LAG.

IndieMatty · #2 10-14-2004, 03:15 PM

Raise the flop. For God's sake raise the turn.
Spike a heart on the turn.

Bob T. · #3 10-14-2004, 03:34 PM

The pot is huge, everyone has the odds to continue to the river. Raise at some point before the river.

JinX11 · #4 10-14-2004, 03:54 PM

Yeah, I figured...the risk-reward balance in going for overcalls is sometimes tough for me. That and I was too busy cussing out Johnny Damon.

On the flop, I suppose I was wanting to wait until the turn to isolate the Uber-LAG. Then, the flush draw hit and it seemed like noone behind me was going anywhere, so I didn't want to cut off any calls. Then, the river card paired the board and I just have no idea why I decided to raise there.

FWIW, here are the results...hence, the post subject line.

Results in white below: 
Hero has Kh Ah (two pair, aces and sixes).
MP3 has 2c Ac (two pair, aces and sixes).
Button has 7c Qc (two pair, queens and sixes).
SB has 4s Qs (two pair, queens and sixes).
Outcome: Hero wins 28 BB. 

Obviously happy with the outcome, but I wondered if that would be 'results-oriented'.

Thanks for the feedback!

Evan · #5 10-14-2004, 04:16 PM

Ummmm.....yea I have a few thoughts.

My first one is raise the damned flop.
My second one is RAISE THE DAMNED TURN!!!!

Seriously, not raising in either spot is a HUGE mistake. If this is your standard play then you're losing a lot of money that you don't need to.

[ QUOTE ]
I was thinking this was an overcall situation

[/ QUOTE ]

TPTK is NOT a hand to play passivly in a big pot to induce overcalls, especially when its 5 handed and the board is even remotely connected.

I don't remember seeing any posts form you before (but I could be very wrong) so I'll assume you're new or just moved up levels. If it's the former than you need to learn to be more aggressive, in time you will, but for now you might wanna think about playing lower limits to get some practice. If it's the latter than maybe you're just a little gunshy which will fade with time. Either way you need to be A LOT more aggressive in the future.

[ QUOTE ]
thought a set or two pair might be out against me

[/ QUOTE ]

Because the "Uber-LAG" bet out? If oyu got the read you should trust it. A LAG betting out should not scare you off of TPTK.

P.S. I know this post was pretty rambling, sorry.

JinX11 · #6 10-14-2004, 04:27 PM

No apology necessary - thanks for the feedback.

This isn't my standard play, actually; as soon as the hand was over, I think I immediately wrinkled my nose and thought I had played it badly and was extremely fortunate I hadn't let someone draw out on me. Table was over-aggressive; sometimes, I enjoy sitting back and letting the LAG make the money for me.

Also, I finally moved out of being an Eagle (TA-N) to being a Moneybag (TA-A). This after being a Mouse/Rock for months...I can certainly thank Mr. Miller for that (seriously, dude). Being so aggressive is hard work! Seems like everytime I turn around I'm raising.

David BB · #7 10-14-2004, 04:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Then, the flush draw hit and it seemed like noone behind me was going anywhere, so I didn't want to cut off any calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh? Raise!

shummie · #8 10-14-2004, 04:30 PM

Everyone thinks you should have raised the flop and the turn. But why exactly?

The pot is already large enough for you to be happy with it. You need to PROTECT your hand your hand right now. Going for overcalls in this situation is not good. You want people to fold. Raising is especially good for that purpose in this situation because your raise comes right after the initial better. There is no one between you and the better to make the 1bet call.

Raising on the turn: ditto. And, you now have a flush draw giving you outs if someone calls the raise. The 6 is unlikely to have helped anyone (except people with lower flush draws than you). You have to assume you are a winner here with no other raises on the flop and a bet from a LAG. You want people with weak draws to fold now or call 2bets incorrectly.

So in short... with a pot this large, you want to protect your hand with raises rather than build the pot with overcalls.

- Jason

bdk3clash · #9 10-14-2004, 05:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The pot is already large enough for you to be happy with it.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're right that raising protects his hand more than calling does (though I doubt raising either street actually protects his hand from pretty much any draw in this huge pot), but the pot is never "large enough." Value bets are value bets regardless of the size of the pot.

bdk3clash · #10 10-14-2004, 05:14 PM

Meh, I guess you meant the pot is "large enough" to shift our focus from gaining extra bets (via going for overcalls instead of raising) to maximizing our chances of winning the pot. I think that raising accomplishes both, since I doubt anyone who would have called one bet on the flop or the turn will for for two, but point taken.