Creative low-stakes move: the free card min-raise

[Wayfare]

Hi all,

Does anyone notice how min-raises are very often always monsters on party poker? It's probably the easiest dumb-player move to try to pot committ the player, i.e. in the JrJordan hands he so much likes to post.

It doesn't happen as much in live games due to deep stacks, but it seems that a certain type of player online likes to min-raise and does it with sets and monsters of that nature.

Which brings me to my theory: if there are people who are doing this at your table, would a min-raise on the flop not be a good way to see a cheap river? Or at least get it checked to you on the turn so you have the option to see a river? Not only should this work against players who min-raise with monsters, it should work against players exposed to the same practice.

Pot sized raises on the flop with flush draws is often too risky with so little ammo behind (on party), and check-calling just screams for him to continue to fire on the turn. Would a min-raise freeze him up?

Please give me your honest opinion on this, as I have not put it into practice at all.

[amoeba]

it depends on if they are smart enough to recognize it.

[Ghazban]

Maybe I'm too cynical, but I don't think any strategy relying upon your opponents paying attention is a good one for low stakes online no-limit. The players are just too clueless. Sure, if you spot people at your table capable of recognizing a minraise as a sign of a monster, try this out but I just don't see it working in a general sense.

[Ben]

I think this is a decent idea.

From the hand-reading thread earlier (paraphrased): opponents will put you on a hand generally assuming that you play as they do.

I think you'd have the best success with this not against observant spots, but against weaker players who are likely to do this. They'll "recognize" your minraise as representing a monster...like when they do it.

That said I don't think I'd make this play ever really. It doesn't fit my style. I'd rather be semi-bluffing or flat out bluffing with a real bet hoping to win it there.

-Ben

[PokrLikeItsProse]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is a decent idea.

From the hand-reading thread earlier (paraphrased): opponents will put you on a hand generally assuming that you play as they do.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it will work often. Players who make a minimum raise with a monster think they are being tricky by feigning weakness. Thinking highly of themselves, they will just take your minimum raise to be the actual weakness that they are trying to imitate with their strong hands.

I will do it occasionally though because it can help me mark which players I think are weak. (Is that what you call players who are sort of weak-tight except not really tight?)

[JrJordan]

Well, not exactly the reputation I was hoping for on this board (Mr. Minraise Bad Beat Man), but I guess it's better than nothing. Regarding your idea, I think it's a great way to get a free river card, but I think there's more value in making it a slightly bigger raise. This is most common when you make a semi-bluff raise on a draw, say AKspades on a two spade board on the button. Although a minraise will buy usually buy you a free river card, I think there is more value in raising higher for the fold equity that you'll get. Very rarely will a fish fold to your minraise. However, I've found that if you make the raise just slightly higher, perhaps 1.5xminraise, then you increase your folding equity significantly. I think the extra cash you put in on a semi-bluff makes it more worthwhile to have them fold occasionally. And if they don't, you still get the free turn card and a bigger pot to play with if you hit.

Regarding the players themselves, I'm not sure how many will recognize this as a monster. Most fish use the minraise as a sort of trickiness (as someone else already mentioned, trying to act weak when strong). They may actually pick up your minraise as weakness or a feeler bet and come over the top.

[pdubz]

No. You play low limits on the supposition that they are unobservant fishes. This idea violates the principle by which you are making money.

More importantly, you are building up the pot when that's usually not necessary in PP. If I have a very good draw, I call and expect to get paid off pretty well when I hit. Or I can just push, happy going against TPTK/Two Pair hands that aren't ahead. I don't mind calling the flop, and calling the turn, because I suspect that's going to cost me about the same as the minraise in its entirety. And if I minraise, there's always the possibility they fire the turn again and I have to fold [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] Or reraise me all in [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Now if I believe someone at my table knows how to play cards ... maybe I change my play.

[Wayfare]

Maybe I'll try it against you pdubz. Or maybe I know you think I'll try it, and so I'll act like I am trying it, and not really try it. And you'll fall for it by raising me all in and then I'll have you! Or by giving me a free card and then I'll have you!!

Sorry, third level thinking / game theory are blowing my mind.

[kpux]

I think it also has something to do with how easy it is to just hit the raise button, rather than to slide the little bar over. In some part it's just a reflection of how lazy some online poker players are.

However, sometimes when I see this move used against me, particularly on paired flops, it means a pretty strong hand. In general, I think it's a bad idea, it's easy to see through. A normal sized raised disguises a powerful hand (set, top two) better.

[nightlyraver]

I have to agree with the general consensus that it's a bad idea if you are trying to go for a free card. I have actually been observing players in this type of game who do the min. raise w/ monsters and realized that most of them will never consider that someone else will do it. Example: The flop came AT5 or something like that. The habitual min-raiser (let's call him HMR) bets $1 into a $4 pot and all fold to the button (let's call him "fish") who min. raises. What does HMR do? You guessed it - he min. raised back. It went to a showdown an HMR shower AQs and Fish showed AJ. All in all, I just consider them both bad players and their play is consistant with a bad player. You don't slowplay TPTK and when you DO flop a monster, the min. raise is really not the best way to be deceptive and still get the maximum value out of the hand.