How much more aggression in a short handed O8 game?

[cjs]

Does a shorthanded O8 limit game play like shorthanded hold'em? Should the aggression go up?

party 2/4 6 handed

hero is in BB with 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

folded to mp who calls , folded to sb who calls and I check

Flop: K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

sb bets, call , call

Turn: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

sb bets, call, call

River: Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

sb bets, call, call.

comments on all streets welcome. cjs

[chaos]

I definitely play more aggressively preflop in a short handed game. In a heads up situation I'll also be aggressive post flop. Short handed I'll loosen up post flop slightly (I'd consider playing sets other than top set and top and bottom pair).

I think your call on the flop is pretty weak. The pot is small. You have middle pair and an open-ended straight draw on a two-suited board. You have six outs to make a straight that doesn't put three hearts on board. Even if you make your straight on the turn you could lose on the river if the board pairs giving someone a full house, a heart comes giving someone a flush, or a Q or J comes giving someone a bigger flush.

On the turn you picked up the third-nut spade flush draw. But now there are also two low cards on board so a low spade will probably only get you half the pot. Again I would fold.

[cjs]

Wow, I thought I was being weak by not raising the turn or river, but your recommending a fold on the turn and the flop.

I agree the flop call maybe alittle short, I only called because of the OESD. But not having played alot of shorthanded O8 I thought that was enough for the call.

When the turn brings a flush draw as well I would have raised this in a hold'em short game.

The river had me very confused. I hit my flush but it is only the third highest flush. I thought about raising but I couldn't figure what my oponents were betting with so I just called. Again in a hold'em short I probably would have raised again.

[chaos]

In a full game I would not even consider drawing to the less than the second nut flush.

[chaos]

That should have said you picked up the fourth nut flush draw on the turn.

[Buzz]

CIS - You do have a bit more, in my humble opinion, than 6 outs after the flop. I'd also count the ten of diamonds as an out - and I'd count the backdoor spade draw as an out. Alas, some of these outs are only for half the pot. It's actually rather complicated, in my humble opinion, but I do think you have enough to call SB's bet.

Counting the ten of diamonds as an out will cause some raised eyebrows, but considering that only two opponents have seen the flop, although it's true that an opponent could have a full house, I think trip tens will usually scoop. (I don't know how loose your two opponents are, but there aren't many good starting hands for Omaha-8 that include sevens or tens).

However, you're in the worst possible position, sandwiched between SB and MP - and if you figure SB will be leading each round, you're going to have to be concerned about what MP will do after you have acted. From that standpoint, folding to a bet after this flop makes sense too.

If you were going to be aggressive on this deal, I think the best place to be aggressive would be on the second betting round. But you don’t really have much of a hand with which to be aggressive.

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I only called because of the OESD.

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What's "OESD"?

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When the turn brings a flush draw as well I would have raised this in a hold'em short game.

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Raising against two opponents on the second betting round with a 6-out straight draw (and 3 of the outs for only half the pot) plus 4th nut flush draw in Omaha-8, does not, to me, seem prudent.

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The river had me very confused. I hit my flush but it is only the third highest flush.

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It's not the river as much as SB's bet on the river that is confusing.

SB is the one who is playing the hand very agressively. Perhaps SB has a set, which, IMHO, should be played aggressively with three of you in the pot. Meanwhile you don’t have a set - or even two pair. Instead, you have a drawing hand.

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I thought about raising but I couldn't figure what my oponents were betting with so I just called.

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Indeed! SB’s second round bet represents a set of kings but could also be a lesser set, or even two pair. It could also be a straight or flush draw - or a low draw - or anything.

Then on the third betting round, the bet represents a jack high straight, but could be pure stubbornness, as though if SB continues to hammer at the pot you will eventually fold. Or SB could have a set (or something else) and be overvaluing it. (This is $2-$4, after all).

Then on the fourth betting round, the bet represents the nut spade flush, but could be a lower flush draw - or a set, two pair, or almost anything. SB could think you were drawing to something, perhaps only a low, and missed. SB could have been drawing to a low himself, have missed, and now be bluffing.

There are all these different possibilities - but you still have to respect the bet, because the bet does represent the nut flush on the river.

But although you respect the bet, just in case it’s one of these other possibilities, you should call because your hand can beat most of the hands SB could have for this betting pattern.

Bottom line: I think your play was fine. Folding on the flop would have been fine too. Folding on the river would be “weak.”

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[Ghazban]

OESD = Open Ended Straight Draw

(...and for the first and probably last time ever, it is I that knew something Buzz didn't [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img])

[cjs]

Buzz, the party $2-$4 O8 full game is usually very loose ( greater than 50% seeing the flop) and usually passive. So when the game went short I was unsure how much to loosen preflop myself. I am new to O8 but have enjoyed the game so am trying to learn it.

I have read Ed Miller's book and have become more aggressive with draws in my hold'em game. Can his advise transfer to the O8 game ( full or short)?

I realize an OESD and flush draw is a stronger hand in hold'em than O8 but I thought it was still a good hand in O8. I just felt in a short game there may have been value in a raise somewhere in this hand.

Do you agree with the responders that in O8 full only the top two nut flushes are worth drawing to?

I like that you included the ten [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] as an out. I did not count it when playing the hand.

Quote:However, you're in the worst possible position, sandwiched between SB and MP - and if you figure SB will be leading each round, you're going to have to be concerned about what MP will do after you have acted. From that standpoint, folding to a bet after this flop makes sense too.

The Mp player had me very scared in this hand. His calling could be anything and made me more passive throughout the hand.

I thought the sb had missed his heart draw and was bluffing.But had no real read on him.

cjs

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
I have read Ed Miller's book and have become more aggressive with draws in my hold'em game. Can his advise transfer to the O8 game ( full or short)?

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CJS - Alas, I don't have his book. It was briefly in the Hollywood Park bookstore and I was planning to get it, but then I got distracted and somehow didn't buy it - and it sold out before I picked up a copy. I thought they'd re-stock it, but they haven't as yet. If I ever see it in a poker bookstore, I'll pick up a copy.

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I realize an OESD and flush draw is a stronger hand in hold'em than O8 but I thought it was still a good hand in O8.

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There are a variety of open ended straight draws. For example,
• the board can be 289T-rainbow and you can hold AATJ. In this case, you have eight outs but none of them are to the nuts.
• the board can be 23TJ-rainbow and you can hold AA98. In this case, you have eight outs but only four of them are to the nuts.
• the board can be 2389-rainbow and you can hold AATJ. In this case, you have eight outs and they're all to the nuts.
• the board can be 2h3h8d9c and you can hold AdAcTdJc. In this case, you have eight outs but only six of them are to the nuts.
• the board can be 2h3h8c9c and you can hold AdAcTdJh. In this case, you have eight outs but only four of them are to the nuts.

The above does not exhaust all the possibilities for open ended straight draws. You like your straight draws to be to the nuts - sometimes more so than other times.

Thus some of the open ended straight draws shown in the example above are better than others - and how good any of the draws are depends on factors such as who is still in the hand with you and how the betting has gone.

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I just felt in a short game there may have been value in a raise somewhere in this hand.

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Maybe. The general principle is to play more aggressively in a short-handed game - and more aggressive play does often involve raising. But I don't think that's the case here. And six-handed is not what I think of as short-handed, although clearly your drawing hands in six handed are worth less than in nine or ten handed - with a corresponding increase in the value of big pairs. I think you should play your big pairs more aggressively - but you didn't have a big pair.

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Do you agree with the responders that in O8 full only the top two nut flushes are worth drawing to?

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Chaos gives good advice on this forum. I don't disagree with him much - and I don't disagree with him here. I'm maybe looking at it a bit differently, probably partly as a reflection of my most recent experiences, which are different from his.

I wouldn't use a word as rigid as "only" here. You always prefer double suited hands over single suited hands - and you always prefer single suited hands with only two cards in the suit (and one of them the highest ranking card in the hand) over single suited hands with three cards in the suit - and you always prefer suited hands with three cards in the suit (and one of them the highest ranking card in the hand) over single suited hands with four cards in the suit - and all of the foregoing are prefered to non-suited hands.

When you have one of these non-nut but suited hands, as indeed you have in your original post in this thread, the suitedness adds value to the hand. You're not drawing to the nut flush or even the second nut flush, but you are drawing, and the suitedness of your hand does add value to your draw - especially a back-door draw as you have in your example.

Let's say that unless there were extraordinary circumstances, I would, not generally draw to less than the second nut flush - and I might not even draw to the second nut flush. But you always play your opponents and take pot size into consideration.

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I like that you included the ten as an out. I did not count it when playing the hand.

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Thanks.

Keep in mind that you should not, in general, draw for three of a kind after the turn. That would generally be very poor play in Omaha-8.

It's just that in the short handed scenario described, I think three tens might take the pot. Just a quick judgement on my part. Could be that SB (or MP) has a jack-high straight or a set (or KTXX or T7XX), in which case three tens would be a loser for you.

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The Mp player had me very scared in this hand. His calling could be anything and made me more passive throughout the hand.

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Yes. Exactly. You love the contribution from a chaser if that's what MP is, but you cant' tell if MP is chasing or not (although it does look as though MP is indeed chasing).

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I thought the sb had missed his heart draw and was bluffing.But had no real read on him.

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Yes. SB very well could have missed his draw, but you can't tell for sure - and there is still MP to consider. You're not sure if you have a winner or not and you may well lose a bet by raising even if you do have a winner. I wouldn't raise. But it's good that you considered the possibility.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[cjs]

results:

sb: [ 6h, 2s, Kc, 3d ] a pair of kings ( for a missed low draw )

mp: [ Ac, 6d, 4c, 9s ] a straight, six to ten

and my hand is good.

thanks for all the responses, cjs