Another QQ hand

[DrPhysic]

I think we have more posts on QQ hands than any other on the tournament forums. Here is my latest one. This is NOT a bad beat post despite the river card. See questions below hand.

PokerStars Tournament #2877044, No Limit Hold'em
Buy-In: $20.00/$2.00
235 players
45 left, avg stack 7833, tournament pays 27.

*********** # 127 **************
PokerStars Game #745387949: Tournament #2877044, Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2004/10/05 - 06:55:52 (ET)
Table '2877044 11' Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: danx420 (7457 in chips)
Seat 2: veltex (21020 in chips)
Seat 3: DrPhysic (4764 in chips)
Seat 4: JuliusLT (5465 in chips)
Seat 5: BCinNY (5398 in chips)
Seat 6: ninoniver (3175 in chips)
Seat 7: sportbookie (11745 in chips)
Seat 8: scottieray4 (6340 in chips)
Seat 9: O Street (11370 in chips)
all post the ante 25
sportbookie: posts small blind 200
scottieray4: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to DrPhysic [Qc Qd]
O Street: folds
danx420: folds
veltex: raises 800 to 1200
DrPhysic: raises 800 to 2000
JuliusLT: folds
BCinNY: folds
ninoniver: folds
sportbookie: folds
scottieray4: folds
veltex: raises 3200 to 5200
DrPhysic: calls 2739 and is all-in
*** FLOP *** [Ts 6h As]
*** TURN *** [Ts 6h As] [Qh]
*** RIVER *** [Ts 6h As Qh] [Jc]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
veltex: shows [Kc Ks] (a straight, Ten to Ace)
DrPhysic: shows [Qc Qd] (three of a kind, Queens)
veltex collected 10303 from pot

I was below avg stack in the tournament, but still had a dozen BB. I am not desperate, but I do need to make a move soon.
My read on veltex was that he is a pretty solid player. He did not make the raise to 1200 with JTo. He probably had a medium pair or better, and my read was AK. After his raise:
Fold?
Call(bad idea)
Re-raise?
Push?

My thoughts on review are that fold, re-raise, and push are all viable thoughts after his raise to 1200. If he can reasonably have 88, 99, TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AA, or AK, he has the best of it on two, I have the best of it on five, one tie. I lean, on review, to a push solely because 2000 > 40% of my stack.

If you would grant that the re-raise was not completely terrible (which I may not) then, what do you do after his 3200 re-raise?
Fold?
Call?
Now he only has AA, KK, QQ, AK and the best of it has gone the other way. Maybe I should have folded, but you have to make a stand someplace and a pair of Qs is not a terrible hand.

I think QQ is one of the most difficult hands we play. That's why there are so many posts on it. I think if I misplayed this one is was re-raising rather than pushing preflop, although I think the result would have been the same.

Opinions and comments appreciated.

Doc [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[SossMan]

I don't think folding is possible preflop. I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish with the min-reraise. I like a flat call better than a min-reraise. Personally, this hand plays itself because I would push here about 100% of the time. Your stack isn't deep enough to mess around, and you probably have the best hand most of the time preflop.

[Ian J]

There's no chance I get away from this hand with your stack. Getting it all in is the right play here. However, your raise to 2k just plain stinks. Shove it in there and hope AK folds.

[DrPhysic]

SossMan,
What I thought I was doing when I made the re-raise was isolate the raiser, because I did think I probably had the best of it and certainly did not want any other callers, but I thought it was playable without putting the whole tournament on the line. (I really did not look at percentage of my stack at the time.)

On review, I think the push was the correct play as you indicated.

Doc

[McMelchior]

I agree with the other poster about the small re-raise, and I don't see folding before the flop as an option.

I would probably have pushed, but if I really trusted my read on the guy I would say retrospectively that a flat call preflop and folding to a bet on the A hi flop might not be as weak as it immediately seems. I always recall TJ Cloutier pleading "Don't be broke with Queens" while seeing him doing it time and again on TV.

Queens are vulnerable, and if I fold leaving me with t3,500 I'm still just one double-up from an average stack. If not all of the big stacks at the table are as tight as you read the involved player you might still be able to wait for a better opportunity to push (against a more flaky opponent). Personally I don't know where I would find the discipline to that ... pocket QQ and I happily push, but truth is I frequently get punished for it.

Best,

McMelchior (Johan)

[rekoP]

AK cant and wont fold here?

[DVO]

Pretty tough not to lose your stack here. The river was brutal, so sorry.

Your pre flop re-raise constituted 40% of your stack, no way you could lay this down after his re-raise. I would have just pushed after his initial raise, and been happy if everyone folded. (You would have increased your stack by 40% with a good but vulnerable hand (QQ) if in fact everyone folded.)

Your little re-raise doesn't accomplish much, as you're too pot-committed to lay it down to another re-raise anyway. Might as well push right away...

Of course w/ KK villain isn't going anywhere.

Nowhere in this sequence do I see folding as your best option BTW.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
He probably had a medium pair or better, and my read was AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is only semi-related to your post, but this is a pet peeve: you did not 'have a read on him as having AK'. If you think you did, you were wrong and need to reexamine your thought process in general. What you actually did in this hand was to assume he had AK because you had queens and didn't think you were lucky enough to be against JJ (and also because any raise is automatically AK to, like, 50% of players in any given Party tournament).

Now that this is out of the way, your reraise stinks. You could flat call this or push (I'd push), but QQ isn't strong enough to do this with (KK is borderline, IMO).

However, AK doesn't fold here to any bet and neither does AA-JJ (maybe JJ but it's doubtful), so in any case you were probably screwed. Sorry, next hand.

[DrPhysic]

The posts which properly berate my re-raise are correct, but as noted in my original post, I already pretty well knew that.

[ QUOTE ]
Nowhere in this sequence do I see folding as your best option BTW.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a useful piece of information. Thank you.

Doc

[Filip]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think folding is possible preflop. I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish with the min-reraise. I like a flat call better than a min-reraise. Personally, this hand plays itself because I would push here about 100% of the time. Your stack isn't deep enough to mess around, and you probably have the best hand most of the time preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was what i was gonna write. I agree 100%.