The Unconscious (Poker) Mind

[Dan Mezick]

Poker is a great thing to study in part because of the many academic and practical disciplines it points to. A student of the game is led into many subjects and topics which he or she may not have otherwise studied AT ALL.

One such topic is the role of the unconscious mind, or personal psyche.

If you play poker, you have either explored the unconscious at some level of depth, or you have skipped the topic entirely.

Where is the 2+2 population regarding this topic? To be clear, for this thread the term ‘unconscious’ is defined as:

Unconscious: The division of the mind in psychoanalytic theory containing elements of psychic makeup, such as memories or repressed desires, that are not subject to conscious perception or control but that often affect conscious thoughts and behavior.

I was suggesting this very topic in my thread on “Barry Greenstein’s HUGE Psychological Edge”.

[2planka]

interesting topic. To the extent that the subconscious (rather than unconscious, as the op suggests) allows for intuition (i.e. a conscious perception rooted in "feel" rather than observed evidence), I think it's a tool that can inform our perceptions at the tables. not sure if this is what the OP intended, and not sure how to quantify it. Sometimes you just know the guy is slowplaying aces, for example. No way to explain it, unless you believe in brunson's "broadcasting" idea.

[Myrtle]

Dan,

Seems to me that one could easily hold the unconscious mind responsible for most of the leaks that most of us have?

I cannot ever recall even the worst player admitting that they consciously played to lose, even though some of them (IMO) are just absolutely horrible players.

There could be other reasons for this, but it seems to me that the "unconscious mind" is certainly the leading suspect.

[madcaller]

The Unconscious (or sub-conscious) poker mind is extremely important. The player that does not understand or grasp his or her own sub-consciousness will never be more than an average player (if that). The player that does not begin to understand and grasp the intricacies of their opponents unconscious mind will never become and excellent player of the game. Understanding this will equip you with one of the most powerful weapons in the art of poker!!!!

[Shoe Lace]

"Seems to me that one could easily hold the unconscious mind responsible for most of the leaks that most of us have?"

I definitely think so.

I think your sub-conscious controls the basis of everything you do consciously and you won't realize it until you think back on your decisions -- thinking about how your sub-conscious did make you do such and such.

The only way to overcome it is to be so in tune with what you're doing (mentally), that you can consciously overcome your sub-conscious prior to consciously making the decision/action.

When I say that, I almost think perhaps I'm mentally handicapped, or suffer from a disease that makes me look at things "not normally".

This is a topic I am interested in a lot (and had posted about the other day in this forum).

[kalooki45]

My weird two cents.
Conscious mind is a SMALL percent of the brain. We have lots of senses and intuitions that are probably based on things our brain doesn't interpret consciously.

Here's one example: the OLFACTORY SENSE.
We've all heard about pheromones...but we don't go around sniffing each other any more for social reasons...lol

Well, my Uncle Bubby was a winning poker player for many years (he was also a NASA engineer). He LIVED on poker through college and beyond.
He always said he could SMELL a winner, and also a BLUFFER. He meant that literally. (My Uncle John could smell SNAKES--no lie--he always knew when one was around--it was proved time and time again).

This is just ONE example of how many things are being input that we don't consciously recognize..but might be affecting our decisions.
You know about lie detectors--- certain things happen physically when people lie---heart rate up--pupils dilate--sweat, etc.
Perhaps your mind is taking NOTE of increased body heat emanations or something on a level you don't see consciously..who knows??

Heck--even on the net I've noticed it--I've even made up a saying for net players:
HE WHO HESITATES IS RAISED [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Dan Mezick]

Regarding opposition/overcoming unconscious impluses:

[ QUOTE ]
The only way to overcome it is to be so in tune with what you're doing (mentally), that you can consciously overcome your sub-conscious prior to consciously making the decision/action.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is a kind of "house divided". This kind of self-imposed friction can drain energy. Better to resolve and then dissolve any issues at this level. Thereafter, there is flow ... and no thing to "overcome" in hundreds of decisions-making moments averaging 3 seconds in duration (in limit poker for example).

How many times have you seen otherwise "good" players simply become unglued and go down in flames in NLTH tournaments? We attribute this to 'tilt' and discuss 'tilt' objectively. But the unconscious drivers of tilt are rarely discussed. Tournament NLTH is a very interesting laboratory for anyone interested in psychology.

TJ Cloutier alludes to unconscious drivers in his book Championship No Limit and Pot Limit Hold'Em, pages 37 through 39, section = "Player Analysis". He discusses "tilt", the "A" game of your opponent that in 2 hours erodes to his B,C, or D game, etc. These are interesting pages to examine.

[BugSplatt]

Quote:

"My weird two cents.
Conscious mind is a SMALL percent of the brain. We have lots of senses and intuitions that are probably based on things our brain doesn't interpret consciously."

Kalooki:

I got this out of Zen and the Art of Poker(page 118). Take it for what it's worth.

"During any given second, we consciously process only sixteen of the eleven million bits of information our senses pass on to our brains. In other words, the conscious part of us receieves much less information than the unconscious part of us. We should trust our hunches and pursue our intuitions because they are closer to reality than the perceived reality of consciousness."

The above quote came from a Danish scientist in his book "The User Illusion" who suggests that the conscious mind is only the tip of the iceberg.

Bug

[kalooki45]

Wow--gotta get this book!
Thanks for the post!

[Percula]

[ QUOTE ]
My weird two cents.
Conscious mind is a SMALL percent of the brain. We have lots of senses and intuitions that are probably based on things our brain doesn't interpret consciously.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would have to agree with this. When I take the time to listen to my "little voice" and stop playing machincal poker is when I am a winning player.

Prime example:

Late in MTT in CO with 99, I am facing a 4xBB raise from a difficult to read player that mixes up his game well. I have a bad feeling about the hand but call anyway. Flop comes 9J3, he pushes I call with the set. He has KK and rivers a K for set over set.

Later in same MTT, in BB with 45o, facing a 10xBB all-in push from a short stack and a flat call of that push from a big stack. Something tells me to "play this hand", so I flat call, flop is 554, the big stack calls my all-in sending me to 1st chip position.

I can assure you, at least for myself, it is a big part of my success and failure. I think the real "skill" part of this (and this is only a part) is being able to listen, hear and act on the information, all of the information given.