What did I do wrong here or was I doomed

gyndok · #1 09-20-2004, 08:03 AM

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (5 handed)

MP (t2210)
Button (t6215)
Hero (t1765)
BB (t1155)
UTG (t2155)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG folds, MP raises to t450, Button folds, Hero calls t375, BB folds.

Flop: (t1050) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP checks.

Turn: (t1050) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP checks.

River: (t1050) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets t450, Hero raises to t1315, MP calls t865.

Final Pot: t3680

Results in white below: 
MP has 8s Kc (full house, kings full of eights).
Hero has Qh Qd (full house, queens full of kings).
Outcome: MP wins t3680.

ChuckPelowski · #2 09-20-2004, 08:23 AM

.

ChrisV · #3 09-20-2004, 08:33 AM

You need to ask?

You don't think the problem might have been the cheap flop the K8 saw?

gyndok · #4 09-20-2004, 09:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You need to ask?

You don't think the problem might have been the cheap flop the K8 saw?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not so sure that is an obvious answer..

My stack is very short as is MP.

I am trying to accomplish 3 goals here..

1) conceal the strenth of my hand
2) trap the raiser for a double up
3) get away from the hand cheaply if an overcard flops and I get action

Now, any reraise I make in this situation would have to be all in as my stack was too short for anything else. I did consider that, but I was concerned that he would have to call because he was pot-committed at that point. With KK or AA no doubt, but QQ is very vulnerable to the kinds of hands MP would call an allin reraise

The once and future king · #5 09-20-2004, 09:39 AM

The only way you could have played this any more weekly and passively would have been to fold to the 450 raise.

Such an obvious reraise.

You got this one totaly wrong and were never doomed. You should have reraised all in and taken down 450+ the blinds.

gyndok · #6 09-20-2004, 09:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The only way you could have played this any more weekly and passively would have been to fold to the 450 raise.

Such an obvious reraise.

You got this one totaly wrong and were never doomed. You should have reraised all in and taken down 450+ the blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to disagree with the characterization of weak and passive.. The scared money reraises to takes down the raise and blinds. I was trying to be sneaky and double up. Also there is no guarantee he does not fold to the reraise. The result is the same if he calls. Not to mention that but suppose he has KK or AA. Ever stared down that barrell after reraising all in?

As an alternative suppose MP had 8-8 to J-J or any ace. He would be trapped for a double up and I am in better shape to finish in the money.

The once and future king · #7 09-20-2004, 09:58 AM

You need help.

The mentality that "I dont want to reraise all-in with QQ late on to a raise x3 from the cut off when I am the Sb because he might call me" Is far far far to weak.

I personaly would have been overjoyed to see that raise. No way am I giving him a cheap shot at seeing the flop and catching an over card.

All in is utterly obligatory here. Also betting with only 3 left to act is not MP it is LP.

The once and future king · #8 09-20-2004, 10:01 AM

Gyndok.

Why ask the question. "What did I do wrong or am I doomed."

We have told you what you did wrong. You do not listen. You are doomed.

gyndok · #9 09-20-2004, 10:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You need help.

The mentality that "I dont want to reraise all-in with QQ late on to a raise x3 from the cut off when I am the Sb because he might call me" Is far far far to weak.

I personaly would have been overjoyed to see that raise. No way am I giving him a cheap shot at seeing the flop and catching an over card.

All in is utterly obligatory here. Also betting with only 3 left to act is not MP it is LP.

[/ QUOTE ]

The MP was a tag placed by the hand converter not me..

I have played this hand 2 different ways. I have reraised all in and won with a raiser laydown and winning at showdown. I have also stared at an overpair and had a drawout.

When I saw the raise, I was not afraid to reraise, I was trying a different approach at getting a double up. I was thrilled to see I was going to get some action.

That being said if after the flop it was obvious I was beat, then I COULD get away from the hand.

rybones · #10 09-20-2004, 10:18 AM

I disagree with most of the posts here. I don't think you played this too poorly preflop. I for one would respect a 3xbb bet from this co. he is clearly covered by the button so an out and out bluf is risky. At worst, you have to put him on Baby Ace or Baby king. pushing here from the sb to a possible over pair is not imo a good idea. depending on the player, you might want to raise it to 900, and see if that pushes him out. If you do this and co calls then you need to check fold with the k on board. That would still leave you with 800 or so and a shot at the money if you feel you can out play the other short stacks.

However, with just cold calling pre-flop, I think you need to bet 1/2 the pot to see where you are at. With a pot that size, he does not have odds to call unless he has the king or the aces. Even if he cold calls that should set off some alarms that he is holding the king and you can and should slow down.

imo lots of folks love the push pre-flop as it shows strength. However, I sometimes think it is weakness. Not that their hand is weak, but they are scared to play a strong hand after a scary flop so they would rather just push. Learing to play good poker post-flop should make you more profitable. As you rightly said, you cannot take this co for the double up if he folds pre-flop. Alas, you gambled. imo that is a good gamble as long as you are willing to divorce those queens when the over card hits.

as usual, comments from any and all welcome.

Ryan