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#1
09-17-2004, 07:32 PM
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Uncharacteristic play at the pot, 3-handed on the turn
Party 15/30, nondescript hour of the day. Opponents in the hand are a reasonable button who's a little loose but good at getting paid off ("Hudak the Kid") and an SB I have no read on. I raise in mid-early position with K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Button cold-calls, SB calls, BB passes. Flop 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. I bet, Hudak calls, SB calls. Hard to put anyone on a made hand here. KJ, AQ, AJ, etc all seem possible for the button, along with other random gutshots and of course (esp. for SB) the nine-in-the-weeds gambit. Turn is 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Now part of my thinking here is that buttons who cold-call love to act last. And the other part is that I've been paying too much attention to what people THINK I have and not enough to the fact that they play so much cheese themselves. They don't have to put me on much of a hand to give up in disgust on their Festivals of Scunge. Moreover button in this hand is just sentient enough to fold A high to a river bet if subjected to the right stimuli. (And his A high is unlikely to be AK or AQ given the preflop smooth-call.) So I check, button bets, SB calls, and I raise. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] Comments? 
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#2
09-17-2004, 07:50 PM
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Re: Uncharacteristic play at the pot, 3-handed on the turn
A chip spewing loser of a play under almost all conditions. You have to have a very solid read on your opponents to make this play profitably. Your essentially planning a 3-bet bluff into two players with 7 bets in the pot. How smart is that?
my 2 cents. Eric
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#4
09-17-2004, 10:45 PM
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Re: Uncharacteristic play at the pot, 3-handed on the turn
I think check raising is your worst option. I like both leading again, and check folding a lot better.
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#5
09-17-2004, 11:32 PM
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Re: Uncharacteristic play at the pot, 3-handed on the turn
For the record, I've never made this play unsuccessfully. And yes, N = 1, which is why I thought some feedback of a reasoned sort (ahem) would be helpful.
Leading out is bad: I know. AJ and AT will call down; wouldn't you? As we've seen, SB will also call a bet with his underpair or six outs. Elindauer, what are you putting the opps. on? JimmyV
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#6
09-17-2004, 11:39 PM
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Re: Uncharacteristic play at the pot, 3-handed on the turn
[ QUOTE ]
Bad, let me guess BUtton folded, SB called, then check called the river and you lose. [/ QUOTE ] To what? 33? A4? Are YOU calling a turn checkraise with those hands?
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#7
09-17-2004, 11:57 PM
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Re: Uncharacteristic play at the pot, 3-handed on the turn
[ QUOTE ]
For the record, I've never made this play unsuccessfully. And yes, N = 1, which is why I thought some feedback of a reasoned sort (ahem) would be helpful. Leading out is bad: I know. AJ and AT will call down; wouldn't you? As we've seen, SB will also call a bet with his underpair or six outs. Elindauer, what are you putting the opps. on? JimmyV [/ QUOTE ] Yes I think AJ A10 will probably call down if you lead out again. And no, I dont always call down in that spot with those hands, and I would never be in that spot ever because I wouldnt cold call your raise from the button with AJ or A10. At the same time I dont like putting two bets in and trying to push two players off there on hand on the turn. I'd probably give it up. Had I only gotten one flop caller, I might fire again depending on the player and the kind of mood I was in. I dont think your play is all that consistant with a big pair considering how draw heavy the board is. If the button is a thinking player he should be wondering why you are risking giving two players a free card in this spot. Would you ever play say QQ this way? I'm not sure I would be comforatable enough the button would bet to check a hand like in a three way pot with one player left to act. I unfortunately have made that play unsuccessully a bunch of times, which is the reason I dont make it very often anymore. By the way we have played together and I think you play goot. But I'll be calling you down a lot more often now....
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#8
09-18-2004, 12:17 AM
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Re: Uncharacteristic play at the pot, 3-handed on the turn
[ QUOTE ]
I dont always call down in that spot with those hands, and I would never be in that spot ever because I wouldnt cold call your raise from the button with AJ or A10. ... [/ QUOTE ] As I'm sure you know, when someone says "loose Party 15 player" they're really saying something. The button cold-caller is a particular breed, and they just love paint more than anything. [ QUOTE ] If the button is a thinking player he should be wondering why you are risking giving two players a free card in this spot. I'm not sure I would be comforatable enough the button would bet to check a hand like in a three way pot with one player left to act. [/ QUOTE ] These guys hate to check it around with a hand that isn't drawing super-live to something awesome. They're not like you and me, and no, they're not really "thinking players" even though they understand betting patterns. I'm dismayed at how many 2+2ers keep making comments that suggest they don't know how to read hands while keeping in mind the texture of the board (see the other two responses above). I think my logic in this scenario was pretty clear but everyone figures it's just bad because my cards weren't so hot. Since so many of these Party cats don't bother to figure out what you're representing you don't necessarily have to represent something specific to them. In this case I had good reads that have yet to be contested in this thread: name me some likely holdings for these cats that makes this play -EV on this board and we'll talk. Many of these Party 15 freewheelers are playing a power game rather than a mind game. Present company excluded, of course. "The strong take from the weak; the smart take from the strong." -- Princeton basketball coaching legend Butch van Breda Kolff JimmyV
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#9
09-18-2004, 12:36 AM
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Re: Uncharacteristic play at the pot, 3-handed on the turn
"The strong take from the weak; the smart take from the strong." -- Princeton basketball coaching legend Butch van Breda Kolff
I remember Butch when he came to the Lakers. He may have been a legend at Princeton, but he was an arrogant, incompetent jerk here. And anyway, wouldn't it be smarter to take from the weak? That is, provided they had something you wanted? What's your plan for the river if one or both call the raise?
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#10
09-18-2004, 12:36 AM
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Re: Uncharacteristic play at the pot, 3-handed on the turn
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I'm dismayed at how many 2+2ers keep making comments that suggest they don't know how to read hands while keeping in mind the texture of the board (see the other two responses above). I think my logic in this scenario was pretty clear but everyone figures it's just bad because my cards weren't so hot. JimmyV [/ QUOTE ] No, not because your cards arnt so hot. I guess I'll assume you are telling me I'm not a good hand reader, and I'm not gonna watse anyones time arguing whether or not that is true. But you dont give enough player information to make an argument for checkraising the turn. You are taking a stab that the button has a big ace, and the SB is on draw. Any by doing so, you are putting quite a few bets into this pot, and I dont think you will be right enough of the time to make it the right decision. You are also assuming the button will give his big ace up, and that the SB isnt just your average calling staion who is gonna make you turn your hand over with 10 8. The play sucks. Esspecially in this sort of game where you usually need to show the best hand on the river to get the pot.
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