Chippy AKo hand - Is it worth the draw?

ResidentParanoid · #1 09-17-2004, 02:20 PM

After 5000 hands, I'm negative with AKo outside the blinds. So I'm posting a few to find my demons.

Edit: SB and MP2 are LAG. MP3 is loose, passive.

My main interest is in the flop play. Do you raise first time around? Do you re-raise when it comes back if you call? Or are you gone when it comes back for 2?

On the turn, I think the decision is much easier with the flush and straight draws, even if calling 3 bets isn't my idea of fun.

Comments?

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $15.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, 2 folds, SB 3-bets, BB caps, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, SB calls.

Flop: (22 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB bets, BB folds, Hero calls, MP2 calls, MP3 raises, SB 3-bets, Hero calls, MP2 calls, MP3 caps, SB calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (19 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP2 checks, MP3 bets, SB calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

ike · #2 09-17-2004, 02:35 PM

Fold the flop to the first bet. See the jammed pot coming and get out of the way. Also, is this 5000 hands or 5000 AK hands? If its 5000 hands you probably have nothing close to a significant sample size for AK. If after 5000 AK hands its losing you're in serious trouble.

ResidentParanoid · #3 09-17-2004, 02:40 PM

5000 total hands, not AKo hands. Yes, a small sample size, but I don't like the way I'm playing them...

Overcards/backdoor straight/backdoor flush....worth one small bet, no?

nykenny · #4 09-17-2004, 02:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]

5000 total hands, not AKo hands. Yes, a small sample size, but I don't like the way I'm playing them...

Overcards/backdoor straight/backdoor flush....worth one small bet, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes. except your position is bad.

esspo · #5 09-17-2004, 03:11 PM

When I first starting playing on party my AKo was a red number as well. My problem was the same thing I see in this hand.

Pre-flop is fine. Calling one-bet on the flop is OK in my opinion. I think its close between calling or folding, and as Mike I says we save the close calls for the big pots and the close folds for the small pots. Also, given that the BB folded (I'm not sure what he would cap with and then fold to one bet, except maybe AKo [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]), I don't think I see the flop raising war coming. I guess that's one of the many reasons Ike is a much better player than me.

When its 2 more back to me its an auto-fold. Yes the pot is rather large now and you may have as many as 6 outs, but based on the flop action none of them are clean, so if you hit one of them you aren't going to be sure where you are at.

As for the back-door draws, the flush would be nice, but the bottom end of a bycicle isn't worth getting excited over, especially on party.

In short - the back-door draws put me in the take one off camp, but they are nowhere near strong enough imo to warrant calling 2 more small bets much less the dreaded cap.

Turn play - you got what you wanted, fling the chips in and pray.

Senor Choppy · #6 09-17-2004, 03:54 PM

Even assuming your only wins are runner runner flush or straight, you almost have enough to call 2 cold on the flop with that alone, although it's hard to say what the straight draw is worth since you can only pick up a gutshot and it might be to a chop anyway.

On the turn you're calling 4 cold if necessary, so once you get there the only decision is whether or not to raise for some reason.

DcifrThs · #7 09-17-2004, 04:05 PM

[/ QUOTE ]Pre-flop is fine. Calling one-bet on the flop is OK in my opinion. I think its close between calling or folding, and as Mike I says we save the close calls for the big pots and the close folds for the small pots. Also, given that the BB folded (I'm not sure what he would cap with and then fold to one bet, except maybe AKo ), I don't think I see the flop raising war coming. I guess that's one of the many reasons Ike is a much better player than me.

When its 2 more back to me its an auto-fold. Yes the pot is rather large now and you may have as many as 6 outs, but based on the flop action none of them are clean, so if you hit one of them you aren't going to be sure where you are at.

[/ QUOTE ]

usually i respond before i read all the responses but i was curious to see what ike said...after i finished reading the original post i said in my head "personally, i fold for the first flop bet...i hope thats what ike thinks."

the reason is displayed in the two paragraphs above.

if you think its OK to call ONE bet...THEN YOU BETTER BE DAMN SURE YOU'RE CALLING ONE BET...otherwise you have to fold for the first bet OR intend to call the additional obviously coming bets.

the flop is 10 high. you have 1 and and 1 k reducing the possibility (assuming fairly normal raising, 3 betting/capping preflop standards) that those two raisers after you preflop have AA, KK, or AK...they can have QQ, JJ, TT...now you're in trouble on the flop b/c you have a worthwhile draw BUT NO ABILITY TO DIRECT THE ACTION.

you're in a boat on a river w/ no paddle...do you bail before the rapids and forgo the enjoyment of them (responsibly so) or hold on for dear life and risk increased chance of injury (-EV)

personally, i bail because of their likely hands, every single one of them is going 3 bets on the flop

-Barron

ResidentParanoid · #8 09-17-2004, 04:14 PM

Let's see, any heart (9), any 2,3,Q,J (12 more) open the backdoor (although I prefer a heart [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]). Any A and K that fall have questionable value (except the K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]).

It's *possible* I'll get to see the turn for 1 bet. Shouldn't I call the first bet just on that basis? As others have mentioned, BB capped preflop, but folded to the SB flop bet. And SB was the 3-bettor...

esspo · #9 09-17-2004, 04:24 PM

I agree with everything you said, but the two raisers weren't behind hero in this hand, they were in front of him. SB 3-bet and BB capped. On the flop, SB bet and BB folded, leaving just one of the pre-flop raisers in the pot when the action is to hero. Hero has no indication YET that the limpers are going to go nutso on the flop. That, plus pot size and back-door draws make this a call of one-bet from SB correct IMO. AFTER one of the limpers wakes up and SB 3 bets, I cut my losses.

If the pre-flop action was hero raised, mp 3-bet, sb cap, I fold to SB bet.

I don't see anything inconsistent with calling one bet on the flop and not calling two more bets when its back to you. The first call can be correct based on the information you have at that point. When you have more information a fold can be in order. I think this type of situation comes up often. Two examples: (1) you complete in SB with garbage, BB raises; (2) EP limps, you raise from EP with KQ, folded to SB who 3-Bets, EP now caps. I think we both agree that these are folds.

Nightwish · #10 09-17-2004, 04:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think its close between calling or folding, and as Mike I says we save the close calls for the big pots and the close folds for the small pots.

[/ QUOTE ]
Please don't repeat things that are just mathematically wrong. The concept of "close" is the same in both big pots and small pots because EV already includes the size of the pot.