K2s hand in BB, gave me a lot of trouble

[Brian]

Party 5/10, no reads. I'm dealt K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in the BB. UTG+1 raises, MP and LP cold-call, and I call. 4 to the Flop, 4bb.

Flop: K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I check, UTG+1 bets, MP folds, LP calls, I call. 3 to the Turn, 5.5bb.

Turn: T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I check, UTG+1 bets, LP calls, I fold.

How do you play it?

-Brian

[TheHip41]

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K2s hand in BB, gave me a lot of trouble

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Party 5/10, no reads. I'm dealt K 2 in the BB. UTG+1 raises, MP and LP cold-call, and I call. 4 to the Flop, 4bb.

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Why are you calling this? This isn't a steal raise from UTG+1. Fold it up.

[Brian]

Hi TheHip41,

This is a pretty typical call from the BB getting 7:1 closing the action. I'd call with many suited cards here, especially Kxs.

-Brian

[TheHip41]

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This is a pretty typical call from the BB getting 7:1 closing the action. I'd call with many suited cards here, especially Kxs.

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You flopped top pair and you check called the flop, and check folded the turn. This is why I don't play K-trash, you just make a 2nd best hand.

[Brian]

Hi TheHip41,

Just because I may have played my hand poorly post-Flop does not mean that the call is not +EV.

I'm not going to really debate the pre-Flop call any further. It has already been debated thousands of times on these forums. I am more concerned about the post-Flop play.

-Brian

[Tosh]

Tricky hand. This is another one where I might call the flop and bet a non scare card on the turn and see what UTG+1 does.

[Garland]

I would fold K2s to an UTG+1 raise. With two more cold-callers, your hand is extremely prone to domination. The fact that your hand is suited only offers a little more value to a hand that is basically crap. Your position in relationship to the initial raiser is also poor. Suppose you hit your top pair? Now you would rather the bettor come from a late position player so you can check-raise and clear the field.

Given what has happened, I'd opt to bet out. Hope that UTG+1 raises and clears the field. You have a hand, which is extremely vulnerable to the coordinated board with 2 hearts.

The way you played it, I'd probably call it down. It's possible the raiser may still have a hand like QQ and JJ. The other player could be on a draw or have a small piece of it, but unless the river goes "UTG+1 bets, LP raises", I'm probably seeing the showdown.

Garland

[Brian]

Hi Garland,

I said I wouldn't argue the pre-Flop call any more, but your logic is extremely flawed.

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The fact that your hand is suited only offers a little more value to a hand that is basically crap.

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My SSH book is lent out at the moment, but there is a footnote in one of the chapters about the value of being suited. Basically, it stated something along the lines of:

"If you'll make your Flush 6% of the time, then that adds 6% value to your hand. What does that mean? Let's say you are in a 5 way pot with ATo and expect to win 20% of the time. That's not a bad situation to be in, but if you have ATs, you may win 25% of the time because it's suited. While 5% doesn't seem like much of an increase, you've actually increased your chances of winning the hand by 25% just because you're suited. That's the difference in being suited. I believe that this is stated as a footnote somewhere in SSH, and is how I figured out why suitedness is so good."
(quoted from a post of mine about a month ago)

K2s is a MUCH, MUCH better hand than K2o is in this situation.

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Your position in relationship to the initial raiser is also poor.

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This is absolutely false. I have the BEST position relative to the pre-Flop raiser. In fact, I think the call is actually debatable if UTG and MP had limped, and LP had raised. The reason my position to him is great is that I get to check and see what he and the rest of the field does before I act. This will allow me to call the Flop with some weak draws as I'll be closing the action, and it will also allow me to trap the entire field when I flop a strong hand.

-Brian

[daveymck]

I think this is similar to the JT or was it QJ being discussed in another thread except we know UTG+1 is going to bet the majority of times. We are playing this hand for its flush value we have no redraws to the flush, so we have to deceide if we want to play our TPNK no draw hand.

If we do I think we have to bet the flop and look for UTG+1 raising it for us to push others out (a flush draw will probably call two bets anyway) if it come back to us three bet then we can fold, if one bet and no scare card comes we can lead the turn and act dependant on what happens there.

By checking I think it comes back to us for two bets anyway most of the time as UTG will bet and any draw or K will raise.

The trouble with playing it check calling is we have no idea where we are in the hand we still may be best here even with the ten hitting.

Our hand is marginal (we may be best but may be outkicked) has little chance of improvement and is vunerable to redraws, if the pot is smaller here, I know others disagree and think its weak, but I could fold this on the flop.

[Justin Geoghegan]

Since you were first to act, I don't mind the check there. But with a bet and a call behind you I might fold it right there. You have no way of knowing if you have the best hand and absolutely no position to use.

If you had position on the bettor and he was right in front of you I might suggest a raise to narrow the field between you and the original bettor, possibly even giving you a free card on the turn. But if he re-raises on the flop you fold right away.

With top pair bad kicker it's rarely my play to ever hit the call button. I'm either getting out of the hand or I'm using a positional raise to narrow the field and try for a free card.

Edit: I'll defend your pre-flop call too, it's positive EV in my opinion.