Hello and a Hand

spider · #1 09-11-2004, 01:18 PM

My first 2+2 post, but have been reading and learning from these boards for the last couple months, so just wanted to say thanks to everyone for all the great posts here.

OK, hope this is an interesting hand and comments, if any, are appreciated. The setup:

On the prior orbit, UTG in this hand limped and I raised with 88. 3 or 4 handed. Flop has an ace, UTG bets and I fold. Have not been at the table long, but my read is that UTG bets out if he flops a pair, pretty much regardless of other factors.

CO is probably LAG.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed)

Preflop: Dude is MP with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, Dude raises, CO calls, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8.40 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, Dude raises, CO 3-bets, BB folds, UTG calls, Dude calls.

Turn: (8.70 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG bets, Dude raises, CO folds, UTG calls.

River: (12.70 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Dude checks.

Final Pot: 12.70 BB

Nemesis · #2 09-11-2004, 02:53 PM

bet the river for value when checked to.

MisterKing · #3 09-11-2004, 03:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
bet the river for value when checked to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. If you're going to raise the flop when you don't hit, and then bet your ace on 4th when it falls, you have to value bet 5th street. Your hand is very likely to be best, as there are no flushes or straights available. UTG flat called your turn bet, which I doubt he'd do with AK or AQ, and checked to you on the river likely giving away value for himself if he were holding one of those hands. He probably has a big queen or a busted draw, IMO.

Schneids · #4 09-11-2004, 03:46 PM

IMO you're against one of three hands from UTG a vast majority of the time:

ace high flush draw and one pair; A2, or A9.

From this if you have any idea of his level of aggressiveness and fishiness, you can discern the possibilities of each. I think most of the time against an unknown it'll be the first one, though there are plenty of passive fishy types that'll play A2 or A9 just like this.

The thing that I think makes this bet easier is that it's very doubtful you're going to get check raised the times you're beat. If I got to the river this way, I'd bet.

spider · #5 09-12-2004, 12:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
IMO you're against one of three hands from UTG a vast majority of the time:

ace high flush draw and one pair; A2, or A9.

From this if you have any idea of his level of aggressiveness and fishiness, you can discern the possibilities of each. I think most of the time against an unknown it'll be the first one, though there are plenty of passive fishy types that'll play A2 or A9 just like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't think he was semi-bluffing the flush draw (didn't seem to be his style), though that is pretty rampant at the Party 5/10/6max. And I guess it is mostly irrelevant since he's just going to fold if I bet.

My main fear was 2 pair and (also including Q9) and that I had beaten him into submission with a worse hand. When he bets out the turn, I felt there was a good chance he had two pair, but that if I called, CO (LAG) would raise, quite possibly with nothing (or a flush draw). But I wasn't going to fold.

So with the turn raise, I was thinking of getting rid of the LAG and seeing the river for hopefully the same price as calling it down.

When he checked the river, I really wasn't sure I was ahead. But from the comments 3-0 in favor of betting, it looks like I may have been weak. I wasn't worried about the check-raise, as you guys note, I just wasn't sure I was ahead

Anyway, he had QJo and I didn't miss any value bets against him after this hand. Thanks for the comments.

tripdad · #6 09-12-2004, 04:52 PM

your flop line is OK with AK spades, but with just 1 overcard, a backdoor flush draw and backdoor straight draw, your AJ is too weak to continue...especially with LAG yet to act.

given that you were way overaggressive and got lucky with your reverse dominated hand, you must value bet the river. your opponent fears AA/QQ/99 and will never check/raise with 2-pair, but will call with a Q.

cheers!

spider · #7 09-12-2004, 07:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
your flop line is OK with AK spades, but with just 1 overcard, a backdoor flush draw and backdoor straight draw, your AJ is too weak to continue...especially with LAG yet to act.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I agree and was curious if others would think my flop play was slightly reckless or very reckless. But you are the only one to mention it so far.

Normally, I would have just folded the flop except that I had folded in similar circumstances on the prior orbit (as I mentioned in the setup), and made a game time decision to take a stand. Nevertheless, this can probably classified as an ego raise that should have been folded anyway.

Also, because this guy seemed to bet out with high frequency (and always with a pair from what I had seen so far), I thought the jack might also be an out -- though not a strong one obviously.

But the side effect of this play was that I wasn't really sure what to do on the river having played it so LAG on the flop and turn (in the sense that I don't usually play that way).

Schneids · #8 09-12-2004, 07:05 PM

Most of the time, especially with someone still to act behind me, I'll fold. Sometimes I'll raise. Occasionally I'll call. I'd say fold is about 75-80% though.

Raising comes down to knowing who it is that can get away from a piece of the flop. Against the right people it'll go bet, you raise, they call; then on the turn check, you bet, they fold.

I wouldn't recommend your line as a "standard" line for the hand, obviously.