KJ in BB (First Post)

lennywirtz · #1 09-09-2004, 02:17 PM

This is my first post after lurking on these forums for many months and learning a great deal to help my game. The brief background: I started at Party in January and have been a slow but steady winner at the .5/1 level.

Here's a hand I played the other night that brought up several questions to me... Typical loose Party table.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, 2 folds, MP3 raises, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls.

Turn: (7.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls.

River: (12.75 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero bets, UTG raises, UTG+2 folds, MP3 3-bets $2.75 (All-In), Button caps, Hero folds, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 24 BB

My first question is calling the raise in the BB with KJo, and secondly, who calls the raises on the river?

Thanks in advance.

Entity · #2 09-09-2004, 02:28 PM

Your preflop call is bad. You can call KJs, not KJo. The river is icky. Overcalling with the nut straight isn't terrible, but Button certainly likes his hand. I call this one if I have a read that Button is overaggressive, but I call expecting to lose.

Rob

ThunderAces · #3 09-09-2004, 02:58 PM

Must fold this hand preflop.
As for the river, easy fold here's why:
When it comes back to you on the river ur getting like 8:1 if the BB calls. On a hand that you'll be splitting at least three ways at this point. And most likely not everyone has a jack. Lots of ppl like to call the turn with a sm flush in fear of a fourth card in their suit counterfeiting their hand. I would put someone on a flush and pat your back for a good lay down.
Also if ur counting the BBs money into ur odds u must also count on him having you atleast tied.

SoCalPat · #4 09-09-2004, 03:01 PM

I won't lie here ... I've probably called raises with this hand from the BB when I shouldn't have done so. It's a muck more often than not to a raise PF, but it's also very dependent upon who's doing the raising. That said, there are far worse hands to play getting 11-1 like you are with KJo (if you were suited, you'd have an easy call).

Your biggest mistake, however, was not C/R'ing the flop. When you bet out, you're giving anyone who caught a piece of the flop -- even bottom pairs and gutshots -- proper odds to call your flop bet.

With your position relative to the PF raiser, you should C/R and force the opposition into making mistakes by calling two cold with their weak draws and gutshots.

If there was no raise PF, you would bet out. If you flopped a monster (if you had AKd or 99, you would want people to call with anything and you'd relish being raised), you would bet out. But not here.

Betting out the river was good. If you were behind, you were going to hear about it. Calling three cold is simply out of the question here against four other players. Your straight is toast.

FellKnight · #5 09-09-2004, 03:06 PM

Huh???

I've seen two people advising folded PF with KJo from the BB. A huge -EV move. This is micro-limit, not big stakes where a raise usually means a big hand.

It costs you 1 bet to call, getting 8:1. You gotta go for it with KJ.

Nice flop. You bet, I would probably try for the check-raise to force out drawing hands.

The turn Ace is always scary at micro-limit with all the people who play an ace, but the bet was the correct move.

On the river, you've completed a straight, but someone else has quite possibly completed a flush. In your position, I also fold, unless I have think the capper would cap with a J to force other Js out.

Fell

Slappz · #6 09-09-2004, 03:16 PM

Would any of you guys call preflop raises with Ax from the bb? If you had no reads on the players.

Entity · #7 09-09-2004, 03:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Huh???

I've seen two people advising folded PF with KJo from the BB. A huge -EV move. This is micro-limit, not big stakes where a raise usually means a big hand.

It costs you 1 bet to call, getting 8:1. You gotta go for it with KJ.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is bad advice, IMO. Folding here is the right move, though it's probably not terrible to call, you are calling with a hand that is dominated by the range of most PFR hands (AK, QK, AJ, AA, KK, QQ, JJ), and is a slight dog to most other hands that a standard raiser would raise PF (AT, AQ).

I can't think of any significant reason to call with this hand.

Rob

Entity · #8 09-09-2004, 03:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Would any of you guys call preflop raises with Ax from the bb? If you had no reads on the players.

[/ QUOTE ]Axs, yes, especially when there are multiple preflop callers who are likely to call more bets. Axo, no.

Rob

FellKnight · #9 09-09-2004, 03:22 PM

Axs, yes.

Axo, depending on reads. Usually not as you will lose more money to a better kicker than you will make when the A flops.

Fell

FellKnight · #10 09-09-2004, 03:28 PM

We must play in very different micro-limit games then, because a PF raise in my games does NOT mean a power hand. I often see PF raises with hand as bad as J8o, 22, 76s etc.

You also have to know when to fold 'em after the flop if you are bet into heavily. That gives you the proper read as to whether you are beaten or not, not one PF raise with you in the BB.

Now, if there was a 3-bet PF, I'm gone with KJo every time.

Any other insgihts about KJo from the BB. If it is a hole in my game, I would like to fix it... but the fold seems so very wrong to me here.

Fell