"Playing Well Postflop"

[DeathDonkey]

Ok here goes...the first thing everyone coming to this forum learns is how to tighten up preflop and play better starting cards than the opposition. This skill alone is probably enough to win at Party 0.50/1.

It seems, however, that the players who are really crushing these games and moving up to Small Stakes always stress the need to "play well postflop" as after the competition gets a bit better, that is where the money is made. Additionally, many slight preflop mistakes are considered to be "not that bad" because the poster in question can be assumed to "play well postflop" or "outplay the competition postflop".

The reason for this post is that I consider myself to be a fine preflop player, as many here are. At the end of the day, its not that difficult to play well preflop. I have a slightly higher VP$IP than many here, but used to think that its not big deal since I "play well postflop" and can make up for these small mistakes.

I just realized, however, that I really have no idea whether I "play well postflop" or not. It is not so easy to quantify this skill as it is to simply look at a number like VP$IP and say "too loose", "too tight", or "just right". What I do know is that my results aren't nearly as high as I would like or expect them to be and I can only assume that my postflop skill is less than ideal. I hope some of the players who do "play well postflop" can expound upon that a bit, and make a sort of checklist of skills that a good postflop player has.

Here are a couple that I believe are true to start with:

-Make plays based on math: fold/call/raise draws where mathematically appropriate. Make river folds/calls where mathematically appropriate. *** this is something I think I am decent at and getting better.

-Make good value bets *** this is difficult and probably something I struggle with the most.

-Fold good hands when beat *** this maybe doesn't apply so much at the lowest limits, but even moving to 1/2 I have found myself chasing while drawing dead or calling down only to see I was way behind.

-Read hands well *** I find this easier to do as the table tightens up, for obvious reasons, but luckily this skill is maybe not quite as necessary at the lower limits as it will be in the future.

That's a start...please add, correct me, or tell me what "play well postflop" means to you. I really want to be able to look back at my play and see whether I did indeed "play well postflop" during that session and right now I have a hard time knowing one way or another.

Thank you,
DeathDonkey

[afk]

I think you're on the right track. Some advice though, if you REALLY want to play well post flop, read the small stakes forum just as much as you read this one. I started that about a month ago (and several months too late) and my postflop game has gotten exponentially better. Obviously we can't be posting micro hands there, but the concepts still apply to our game every bit as much.

[droolie]

One thing I would add is to trying to put your competition in -EV situations through raising, check-raising or reraising. The more poor choices they make the more time they are paying you! Only check raise when you know there will be a bettor. Getting too fancy by giving free cards to passive players is a big problem when they all go to the river.

[ThunderAces]

I like what u had to say.
I believe the quikest way to better post flop play is trying to understand each play u make. You'll find looking at your session in poker tracker, help you plug many post flop leaks. You'll be saying I should've folded instead of calling or raised instead of calling.
You'll begin to realize that one must make more fold and raises and less calling. I can usually tell who wins by the amount of calling they don't OR DON'T. Hope this helps.

[Daithi]

I too think you are right on track. I highly recommend you pick up SSH if you haven't already. There is ton of stuff in there about post flop play. It has dramatically improved my win rate.

I learned to play so tight preflop that I was sometimes taking that tight mentality into post flop play and folding hands that actually had implied odds to call. I wasn't betting on the river nearly enough. I've also gotten a lot better and determining if I should bet out or raise on the flop, or if I should wait until the turn.

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
-Fold good hands when beat

-Read hands well


[/ QUOTE ]

These are the same thing and it's the second one which is the killer. It's easy to fold if you know you're behind and don't have the odds to continue, it's easy to make a value bet if you know what the other person is holding, it's easy to know whether the pot is big enough to draw if you know exactly what you're drawing against and how many outs you have, it's easy to bluff and take the pot if you know what hand your opponent has and that he can't call a raise with it.

You can never know your opponents' hands unfortunately but once you have mastered the mathematical stuff and understand pot/implied/effective odds and value betting, by far the best way to improve your play (and WR) is to concentrate on player reads and hand reading.

I think everyone strives to improve their skill at reading hands, even the highest limit players.

[scotnt73]

i was trying to teach my brother to play holdem online a few months back and found that you can teach preflop basics and how to play tight to a beginner but all the rest comes from experience.

my hat is off to the authors of these great 2+2 books. i never realized how hard it is to explain concepts that arent just the basic ones. i cant tell you why im really good post flop. i dont count outs consiously. i see how big the pot is and i see if i have overcards,straight,or flush draws. i then just KNOW if its worth going for or not.

[ThunderAces]

Getting a read on a player is much easier when u are raising more where alot of players only call. Try callin a guy down and figure what he has. Very difficult huh?

[DeathDonkey]

Well I certainly agree with lots of calling = weak play, but there are times, especially at the lowest limit Party tables where calling down a goofball is warranted. I always look over the hands where I lost the most money in Pokertracker after a session and post those I find interesting / debateable.

The problem with that is: what do I look for in the hands themselves to improve the postflop play? Sure its easy to look at the results and say, oh, his raise on the flop was for a free card, I should have bet the turn. But that's once I know the results - its easy to make the right play after the fact. I try my best to apply those lessons learned from the results to the future sessions, but I think its hard to plug leaks from looking at hand histories.

I still have a small stack of poker books to go through that I bought over the summer, but I guess I need to add SSH to the pile.

Thanks for the comments,
DeathDonkey

[DeathDonkey]

Bump (one time I promise) for the night shift. I know some SS guys poke their heads in here pretty frequently...maybe they can share some knowledge on postflop play? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]