Applying a concept made easy?

[MoreWineII]

4/8 Live.

Just sat down, zero reads. Well, that's not true, I knew a couple of the players. The only player I knew in this hand was a middle-aged lady who is wonderfully loose-passive. I love her, I really do. In fact, I had changed tables just so I could sit with her. Anyway...

Hero is UTG with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

Hero raises, some folds, MP calls, some more folds, Button, SB, and BB call.

5 players to a flop of 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

SB checks, BB bets, Hero calls (?), MP folds, button calls, SB calls.

4 players to the turn, A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

SB checks, BB bets (he's almost all-in), Hero raises, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls.

3 to the river which was a blank of blankity-blank. Check, bet, fold, BB raises his last two chips. I contemplate. Haha, no I don't, I call immediately.

BB shows A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and MHIG.

I was planning on raising the turn no matter what fell. Help me out here - should I be raising the turn even if a diamond falls? Obviously the perfect card made things a lot easier. Was this a good application of this concept or should I just go ahead and raise the flop?

[MoreWineII]

This is a concept that I'm struggling to apply and you're going to help me with it, so help me...

[img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

You must raise the flop on this draw heavy board. Get rid of all those gutshots and singleton high diamonds.

Turn raise is good. If it was a diamond, a raise is still good, if you get 3-bet then you can call down.

[Rubeskies]

Well the problem here is that nobody with two diamonds here is going to fold on the flop or the turn even if its two bets to them. So I think you should raise the flop in an effort to knock out anyone with 1 high dimaond or a gutshot who might stick around with a backdoor flush draw who might fold two bets but call for one. He'll fold the turn if he whiffs regardless, and he'll call two cold if he now has a 4 flush.

Anyone agree/disagree with this line?


Opps, Challenger beat me to it.

[Evan]

It's hard to put BB on a flush draw since he would likely check-raise the flop because of your PF raise. More likely he flopped a pair. I'd rather see you raise the flop to charge flush draws and straight draws behind you. Turn and river are obviously right.

[Ralph Wiggum]

What concept made you call the flop? I don't understand what concept you're referring to.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
Well the problem here is that nobody with two diamonds here is going to fold on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

I hear this a lot, and I think I know why. People always think that you want draws to fold when you don't necessairly. What you do want to do is make them make mistakes. Just like betting and giving a draw 15-1 to call is better than checking and giving them infinite odds, raising here and giving them 6.5-1 is better than calling and giving them 12-1. While they're still correct to call with a flush draw, they would be wrong to do so with a gutshot or high diamond. You have to give these draws a chance to make mistakes.

[Rubeskies]

[ QUOTE ]
While they're still correct to call with a flush draw, they would be wrong to do so with a gutshot or high diamond. You have to give these draws a chance to make mistakes.

[/ QUOTE ]


That's why I said raise the flop.

[Louie Landale]

What concept are you talking about? If its "keep the pot small to reduce the odds they're getting on the turn" then be prepared to get blasted.

The problem with calling the flop, hehehe, figuring to call the turn is [1] you let weak-draws in cheap. They're getting about 12:1 to call now and are sure to pick-up more ground when they 3-bet the turn. [2] BB may check the turn leaving you with your pants down. This is especially true in this draw rich flop, since a lot of players will bet a draw and check the turn. [3] If the opponents are getting the right odds to call one turn bet but not two, and will correctly call one but fold to your turn raise, you do NOT gain very much by the clever raise. Getting 4 small bets from them (raise the flop, they call, then they call your single turn bet) is going to be better for you than letting them call 1sb cheap and then fold. [4] You give up your chance to 3-bet the flop AND 2-bet the turn when you slow-play.

But if they are going to call no matter what AND BB is going to bet the turn, then you do a little better by slow-playing.

You need a good reason to get cute. I don't see one here. Play straight forward.

- Louie

[Evan]

I know, I just wanted to point out to a lot of people that flush draws staying in is not a bad thing for you. If you knew they would fold it would obviously make the hand easier to play, but haveing them call is more profitbale since you are still going to be a big favorite.