53o BB 5 way action and 1 bet to close the action.

[Gordon Scott]

I’ve started looking at these hands a little differently and I would appreciate some direction.

UTG open raises for first time I recall in 20 hands or so I’ve been at the table.

I call one bet to close 5 way action (pretty typical for this table preflop) in the BB.
Good or Bad?

Flop J24 rainbow. I check UTG bets, all call. I’m stuck in this spot because I feel 90% sure if the ace comes I’m getting a big payoff but on the other hand I get the feeling that my ACE outs are reduced by the number of limpers and the UTG.
Did I miss a bet?

Turn rags off with a fourth suit, 8 I think. So, no flush draw, no Broadway cards. My outs are thin 5 maybe 6 if my read is good. UTG bets all call.

The river is irrelevant because this is not intended to be a “look what a great job I did spanking big cards with junk” post. I’m normally pretty tight in the blinds but when the UTG raises and I’m the preflop cutoff I’m loosening up with some junk. Not big-card little-card, almost always dominated AKQx junk but 1 & 2 gappers and some suited rags occasionally.

I’m not suggesting that any two will due in this situation but it seems to come up enough to make it worth asking the question.

Is there a certain group of junk hands that show a profit in the spot?

Thanks
Best of Luck

[illunious]

I fold preflop, I'm too tight especially in these situations, so I could be wrong.

I would bet the flop. You also have a good opportunity to checkraise the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
I’m getting a big payoff but on the other hand I get the feeling that my ACE outs are reduced by the number of limpers and the UTG.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's no way to calculate this, all you know is that there's 4 aces and 4 sixes somewhere in the 47 cards that you haven't seen.

[Brian]

Hi Gordon,

Fold pre-Flop, and it's not close. If you're calling 53o here, I have a feeling you are probably calling way too many other hands as well here. You should also be folding hands like ATo, KJo, 87o, etc. here.

You should check-raise the Flop for value. You have an open-ended straight draw, as either an Ace or a 6 will give you a straight.

The rest is fine. I'd probably bet the River if I hit the Ace, as UTG may get scared and check it through if he has a smaller pocket pair, or if he has AK he may get greedy and raise you. If I hit a 6, I'll check-raise.

-Brian

[EDIT]: And Illunious is correct, your reasoning about how many outs you have is extremely flawed.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

calling with junk hands is okay closing the action with relative position on the pf raiser and likely closing the action on all streets.

but i will not call with dominated big cards in fear of domination of course. 53o may be a bit low, but 87o is a pretty standard call, even 86o would be with an extra caller.

[Gordon Scott]

[ QUOTE ]
And Illunious is correct, your reasoning about how many outs you have is extremely flawed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand I have 8 outs more if you count the 5s and 3s and really think 3 players cold called 2 with nothing.

Most think my thinking is flawed on this and I'm sure the list will grow if others reply. It just seems logical to me that with 3 players cold calling 2 bets preflop the likelihood that at least one of the aces is out would be increased.


Thanks

[Entity]

Your 5s and 3s are not outs. Aces and 6s are, though, and there are 8 of them out there.

BTW, this is about a 99.9% fold. 53s is better, but you're definitely gambling with cards like these. I'm pretty sure 53o is -EV in this situation.

Rob

[Gordon Scott]

I agree they are out there somewhere.

Thanks

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
Most think my thinking is flawed on this and I'm sure the list will grow if others reply. It just seems logical to me that with 3 players cold calling 2 bets preflop the likelihood that at least one of the aces is out would be increased.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see where you're coming from with this, and it's probably a fine line. If we discount certain outs as "dirty" based on a possible holding of an opponent, it probably makes a little sense to discount an ace as an out with 3 cold-callers after an UTG raiser.

How much you discount those outs is debateable. If an A falls you may actually have better implied odds in this hand, as you may get more action on latter streets.

I don't think it's a black/white, right/wrong issue. If people think it is, I would like to see a concrete explanation of why.

[Gordon Scott]

[ QUOTE ]
How much you discount those outs is debateable. If an A falls you may actually have better implied odds in this hand, as you may get more action on latter streets.


[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo - Why push out an Ace X hand with a check raise or betting out on the flop when UTG has shown he has a big hand. My 3s and 5s are no good if we run this hand with T8 or paint cards thats a horse of a differant color. I gotta have and Ace or a 6 to win the showdown. It's kinda like slow plaing a big draw. I don't know, I'm just a rookie but I think I'm moving in the right direction mixing it up with this bunch of sharks every couple of days.

If the Ace had come on the turn rather than the river it would have really been big. Based on the river action I'm almost positive UTG had AK or AA and UTG+1 had to have Aces up.

Thanks

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
Bingo - Why push out an Ace X hand with a check raise or betting out on the flop when UTG has shown he has a big hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm semi-defending your thought on the A outs, but not your play in the hand. I'd fold this PF. I will call from the BB when closing the action, but like CDC said, I'd like it to be suited or a little higher than 53o.

And I think a c/r is for value, not to force anyone out. The pot is getting big, and c/ring the flop only ties in people who want to chase with overcards, Axs, etc.