Illustrative hand -- inside the mind of a fish

Greg J · #1 08-31-2004, 04:22 PM

Bison's hand converter is, without a doubt, the neatest thing since ice cream. However, I don't think we use it to its full advantage. We post hands to test our own play, which is obviously the most useful and straightforward application of the converter, but I think we can also use it as a tool to understand the people we take money from, and how they think.

I think this hand is a useful look at the thinking of a poor poker player, here called "the fish in question." He is loose passive, rather weak, often won't bet with the best hand, but will call you down all the way. He only bets when he thinks he is good at the moment. He tries tricky plays sometimes, ideas he probably got from watching the World Poker Tour. His hand selection probably reflects this. His concept of the importance of position is limited at best, and probably does not factor into his preflop hand selection. He does not play EVERY hand, but plays probably 40-45%. He is not the worst poker player in the world, but he is certainly not good, though he probably thinks he is.

Paradise Poker 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: The fish is question is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG (The fish in question) calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, Greg calls, MP3 calls, CO raises, Button folds, SB calls, BB calls, UTG (The fish in question) calls, Greg calls, MP3 calls.

He limps with QXs UTG -- a hand we muck everyday and twice on thursdays. He, obviously, thinks it's a playable hand. His thought might be something along the lines of "Q9s. HEY, not bad! I saw Gus Hansen raise with this same hand last week, so it must be pretty good. I wanna play this hand. I could make a straight or a flush with it! Darn, it was raised. That's okay, Q9s is a good hand, plus I already have some of my money in the pot." 

Flop: (12 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, The fish in question checks, Greg bets, MP3 calls, CO calls, SB folds, BB folds, The fish in question calls.

Notice the lack of a value bet. When I have this hand, or any other 2 hearts, I value bet it. Not him. His thinking is probably, "Okay cool I have my flush draw! I will try to get to see a heart for free. I don't want to pay for my flush. Oh great, this Greg guy just bet. I wonder what he has... must be a seven."

Turn: (8 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
The fish in question checks, Greg bets, MP3 folds, CO folds, The fish in question raises, Greg 3-bets, The fish in question calls.

"Bingo! Hit my flush. Checkraise time! WTF? He re-raised me? What does he have? A full boat? Well I'm not folding! I have the flush!"

River: (14 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
The fish in question checks, Greg bets, The fish in question calls.

"Better check to this guy and just call the bet, but maybe I'm good! I hope so!"

Final Pot: 16 BB
Main Pot: 16 BB, between The fish in question and Greg.

I think analyzing the play of other plays is a useful and worthy application of the hand converter. Understanding how our opponents play can only make us better. I hereby call on other posters on this board to post hands from thier opponents, be they good or bad players! We have much to learn from all of them!

Any thoughts on what my hand was? I'm sure you can figure it out. I will post it later.

Greg

Beavis68 · #2 08-31-2004, 04:38 PM

Ed had this discussion elsewhere, but Q9 UTG is loose weak games in not that bad, would you fault hit for playing QJ or Q-10s? Once he is in, of course he is going to call a raise with it. Not folding a suited semi-connector for one raise.

Not sure what you are playing coming in behind him with that would hit that boards that would be much better except 55 or 7 7.

GreyOne · #3 08-31-2004, 04:41 PM

AhXh coming into this is pretty strong as well, esp. when you see it hit on the turn.

Entity · #4 08-31-2004, 04:48 PM

I get the feeling Greg either had Ah 8h (or something similar), or possibly 55.

Rob

Sent · #5 08-31-2004, 04:51 PM

I'm feeling Ahxh

-Sent

bigslick98 · #6 08-31-2004, 04:47 PM

U had 55...its the only logical hand. By the way, this is far from the worst play I have ever seen.

Greg J · #7 08-31-2004, 04:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
U had 55...its the only logical hand. By the way, this is far from the worst play I have ever seen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Awesome! I'm getting a good debate going.

Playing Q9s in general is not a bad hand, but one I usually fold. I would never play it UTG. I would limp in on the button if i had several (4+) callers.

I was not trying to argue his play was bad, since I think this guy does some things right, but probably for the wrong reasons. His checkraise was not a bad play, nor was his checking calling down. But his lack of a value bet was, as was his preflop limp.

nolanfan34 · #8 08-31-2004, 04:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
U had 55...its the only logical hand. By the way, this is far from the worst play I have ever seen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you play 55 that way? I would never bet that out on the flop when checked to, with the PF raiser behind me. This is a great flop for 55 to let someone else make a second best hand and pay you off on the turn.

Anyway, Ahxh is the only logical hand I'd play the way Greg did.

Go Megatron Go!

radek2166 · #9 08-31-2004, 05:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
By the way, this is far from the worst play I have ever seen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hell it better than the old 72o raise UTG and the idiot hits a runner runner Fh to crack my aces.

With A person consistanly playing any 2 suited cards from any posistion that gives me some info. The how do I say this nicely. The short bus riders who raise anything preflop and suck me out for 15 or 20 BB. That it are impossible to get a read on drive me nuts and make me play bad but, thats my issue to deal with.

MrHorace · #10 09-01-2004, 12:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
U had 55...its the only logical hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Help me out here. Why 55 vs Ah8h or some other AhXh, which I am tending towards?